The Common Denominator of Success, Garry Kinder, Ep. 8

Where the Insurance Pros Meet

Garry Kinder is back on the show to talk about the common denominator of success. He shares his key industry insights and talks about why you must set and measure goals. Learn more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: Where The Insurance Pros Meet, episode eight. Mark Miletello: Goals are set to be met. Speaker 1: Where The Insurance Pros Meet is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together: managers, coaches, and producers. The very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business to have your most successful year ever. Now here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of Where The Insurance Pros Meet. Mark Miletello: Welcome to the show. We're glad you joined us. I'm your host, Mark Miletello. Today we have a repeat guest on the show, one of the industry's greatest mentors, coaches, producers. I guess you've been in this industry for six decades now, five to six decades, but a true icon. Mark Miletello: How long has it been? Garry Kinder: Well, I came into this business in 1953 when I was a junior in college. I was at a university where you could get a degree in insurance, and I did that. My bother encouraged me to start selling life insurance when I a junior in college, so that's '53 to 2017. Mark Miletello: Well, that qualifies for six decades, 64 years. Congratulations and welcome back to the show, my mentor and one of my just ... personal friends Garry Kinder, welcome. Garry Kinder: Glad to be back. Mark Miletello: Well Garry, thanks for taking the time to join us. Last show, it was just one of the most exciting times for me to have someone that means so much to me... share. And really what I wanted to do on the last show was dive in and get to know you, and get to know you as a person. It was more about, I think, learning and walking through your life. But one thing that we did touch on a whole lot that I'm glad that you decided to come back, and I hoped that you would, is I really wanted to get in and talk about the things that you do so well, which is mentoring, coaching and teaching. And let's talk about the success and how to be successful of agents. Is that okay with you? Garry Kinder: Sure, sure. Mark Miletello: Garry Garry Kinder: You can ask the questions. Mark Miletello: Go ahead. Garry Kinder: No, you can ask the questions. Mark Miletello: Well, I think one of the first messages that I've read coming into this industry, and I believe maybe even you shared it with me. There's an old speech by Albert E. N. Gray, it's called, The Common Denominator or Success. I think anyone in this business should have, or maybe even knows about that, and really you can probably research it, find it. I think everyone should read it when they enter this business. But the crux of that speech he gave back, I guess ... I think it was, what, 50, 60, 70 years ago? It was a long time. Garry Kinder: Sure. Mark Miletello: The idea was that successful people form the habits of doing things that failures won't do, right? Garry Kinder: That's right. Successful people form the habits ... I'm giving you the exact words that he used. Successful people form the habits of doing the things that failing people don't like to do. This could've been given to students in college. It could've been given to athletes. For an example, students in college, what is a failing student in college, what is it they don't like to do? Mark Miletello: Study, go to class. Garry Kinder: They don't like to study. Go to class and study, that's right. And the ones that are going to class and studying, they don't like it either. But they do it because they have the discipline to do what they ought to do. Now you take athletes ... I've played athletics in high school and college and I've played with some pretty dad gone good people, but they never made it. They never got past the first practice because they were not willing to do the things that failing people don't like to do. And failing athletes don't like to practice. Who in the world would like to practice? They want to play. They just want to go play, but you got to practice. So, the common denominator of success is doing things that failing people don't like to do. Mark Miletello: Well, you've been in this- Garry Kinder: That's true in our business. Mark Miletello: Yeah. I mean you've been in this industry now for six decades, which congratulations. And can't tell you what you mean to this industry and you mean to us out here in the field. And obviously, you've been around a lot of people that have been both successes and failures. So, what is your interpretation of that? In your opinion, what are some of the things in our industry that successful people form the habits of doing? Garry Kinder: Okay, so in our industry the things that the people. First, most people do not like what I'm going to say, I mean that people do. Most people do not like to make phone calls after phone calls after phone calls to referred leads, to friends, to people they're associated with in religion or studying, or whatever. But they don't like to do the things that failing people don't like to do either, and that is they don't like to make phone calls. But the great ones discipline themselves to make calls every week, every day. Now some people turn it over to one or two days a week, and that okay, but the successful ones make the phone calls. They don't like it, but they do it. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Same thing to do with the loser. The loser doesn't like doing it, so it doesn't do it. Mark Miletello: Yeah, I'll tell you ... Well, number one is just making the calls because we know this is a numbers game. It always has been, and it always will be, getting in front of enough people. I think there's a lot of things that go into that but when you're coaching ... and I look back at the times where you've coached me. When you're coaching, what are some of the first things that you focus on in trying to launch an agent to have a successful career in the very beginning? Garry Kinder: Number one, you must memorize scripts, and there again, a lot of people don't want to memorize scripts. I've had people come to me, Mark, and I can' tell you the number of people that have come to me over the years and said, "I don't like ... the script doesn't sound like me." And I said to them, "Well, that's good." And they said, "What do you mean." I said, "What I mean is, if it sounded like you, it wouldn't work." You got to memorize these scripts. Then, the second thing in my opinion, most important ... these are the two most important things that people in our industry need to do, is have good scripts memorized. They sound like you. They're natural as can be, that's number one. Number two is keeping good records. And I'm telling you there's a lot of people in our industry that don't like to keep records. We're watching the World Series right now, do those people keep track of their batting average? Why they calculate it when they hit first ... If they get a single to the right field, when they hit first base, they recalculate what their batting average is up to. Mark Miletello: What their worth is? Garry Kinder: That's right. Mark Miletello: I mean the difference in the worth of a professional athlete can be one minor percentage of their ... Yeah, especially major league baseball, it's once a week the stats come out, all the stats. Yet we start a business and we don't even write down our simple goals, so I think you're right. I knew you were going to say that because that's one of the things you had me do when you mentored me back in the year 2000. You had me keep the stats and you said, "You can't monitor what you don't measure." And so, I started measuring and monitoring those numbers, and those numbers just kept increasing and increasing, and my stats grew better and better. Especially, in professional athletes, that's what they're paid for those stats, right? Garry Kinder: Sure. And that's what we must do. You've used our planning procedure, where you put down what you're going to do every year and then break it down into months and then break it down into weeks and then break it down into days. You want to keep good records. You want to have good scripts. You want to have good records. You want to study. A lot of things you must just discipline yourself to do that the unsuccessful people don't want to do. Mark Miletello: Well, I'll tell you, I'm coming from now, Garry, the management side of things. As you know, most of my career I was an agent. I find it hard when ... and you say when you're recruiting as a manager, you either hired them wrong or trained them wrong, it's all your fault. I agree with that, but sometimes it's hard. I find when it comes to measuring and monitoring, I there's a fine line between an agent wanting to do that for themselves, and a manager demanding those type of activities. Do you find that you being in a management position that ... Is it the agent's job, or is it the manager's job, is the question? Garry Kinder: Well, it's a little bit of both. But Mike, I've had people come to me ... I remember one when I was starting my management career in Bloomington, Illinois. I started in the business in '53, and I started in the management in '57, '58. And I'll never forget it, a young man in Bloomington, he came to me and said, "I don't like to keep records." This was in the recruiting process, "I don't like to keep records and I don't like to memorize scripts." I said, "Well then you don't need to join this organization." At the time I was representing Equitable, which is now a different company, but I still have a license with them. But this young man, he said, "Well, I went down, and interviewed Prudential and they said that I didn't have to do that." I said, "Well then, you need to go down there. If that's what you want, go ahead. Because here you are going to memorize the scripts. You are going to keep score." Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: But if the manager in the first place in the has to tell these people, "These are the things that you're going to need to do the first few years. You're just going to have to follow some of the things that I tell you to do. We'll write them out and we'll have to do because I cannot take any part of your success if you won't follow exactly what I'm telling you to do." So, I believe that it's more of the management than it is the agent. Because if you get the right agents and you don't train them right, you're still going to have a problem. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: So, you got to recruit the right people, you know that, in the first place. But then once you recruit them you must keep ... have them memorize the scripts, keep the records, make the phone calls, get the referred leads. They got to do all that stuff and if they aren't willing, we need to part company. But hopefully, you part company in the interviewing process. But it's the manager, in my opinion, Mark, whether you [inaudible 00:13:13]. You hire some people, and you've heard me say this before, and that is that 10% of the people that you recruit, you really don't have to tell them a whole lot. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Because they follow everything you say, 10%. 30%, you picked the wrong person, you've got to get rid of them within 30 days, or hopefully in today's world, in pre-contract. You don't want them getting started with you just because you need an agent. So, 10%, they'll run away from you. But then you will make, we say, usually about 20% of the people you recruit over a 5, 10-year period, you're going to make a mistake. You just plain made a mistake, and you need to take care of that quickly. The ones that stick and stay ... So that's 10%, they'll run away from you. 20% 30%, you picked the wrong person, so the rest of those people you'd have to give them scripts. You'd have to meet with them regularly and go over their past seven days. And then, what do you got going for the next seven days? And I believe in people can work ... in the beginning, I don't want them working seven days a week, but I'd like to have them work six days a week. And I'm certainly going to have them work five days a week and put in a lot of hours. So, their leader's the key. Mark Miletello: Well, I think I agree, and I guess it did bring me back to the training that you gave that you'd said in the beginning, "It's really the manager that ... " And if look back over the agents who had success under me, those agents actually did do the things that I asked, and they did right away. And little by little they began to fly, so to speak. Then, I would say, three to four of my best agents are now mentors of mine. That's how it works, right? You become mentors to each other and that's the goal. But I think you're right that looking back, it was the agents that said, "Okay Mark, I'm going to trust you until I find a reason not to. I'm going to listen. I'm going to say the things that you say I'm going to do." In fact, the two of my best agents did that to a tee. They followed everything that I said until they slowly started finding their own voice and all that. Garry Kinder: Well, early in the ballgame in management I met a college graduate that was engaged to marry my youngest daughter, Carol, and his name is Kurt Ladd, and he wanted to come into this business. I said, "I'll bring you into this business if you will do everything I tell you for the first two years if you'll do everything I tell you." And brother, he did it. If I told him to memorize these scripts, he memorized them. If I told him to keep records, he kept the records. His early years, he moved to MDRT, he was a young kid, 23, 24 years old, and his qualifying for the million-dollar roundtable. He's a money motivated guy. He's really good, servicing clients. But he also, he keeps a lot of good business rolling and having good clients. He keeps his business rolling. He was in here early, in my office this morning, it was 11:00 in Dallas now, and he was here about 8:30, 9:00, he came in and asked me two or three questions. Here's a guy that's been in the business now getting close to 30 years. Mark Miletello: Right. I go back to that Albert E. N. Gray, The Common Denominator of Success, I mean a couple of things pop out to me in addition to memorizing scripts and keeping good records. But one is work ethic, and I think there's no substitution for that. Too many times in this business it'd be easy to say, "It's 3:00 or 4:00, I'm done. I'll just put it off." It's easy to put off tomorrow, what we can do today. So, I think that's one that I'll add to the number there is work ethic. I remember when I started was my goal is ... first, I didn't know a thing. I didn't know a thing. I was new to the industry, new to the business, and one thing that I could control, Garry, was my work ethic. That's the only thing that I could control. I said, "I'm going to beat my manager to the office every day. In fact, I'm going to be the first ... " I don't think I knew what that meant back then, so it was strange that I decided to do that. But later, looking back, I realized that, that put me in a position for things to happen when I ... First, a CPA that passed away, one of my favorite and best friends, and was CPA, he passed away. He said, "Mark, very few people do this. First, you've got to show up, number one, and then you got to do what you say you're going to do." That meant a lot to me because when you show up things happen, right? So, I think work ethic is the thing that failures don't like to do. Garry Kinder: That's right. There was a fellow that I spent a lot of time with. He was a doctorate in college, teaching in college with a doctorate degree and it was in Atlanta. He was on the insurance side of the college where he was teaching, and I got to know him very well. He always said what you just said. He said, "Show up. Show up on time. Show up ready to play. Show up. Show up on time. Shop up dressed, ready to play, and show up ready to go." He said, "And you'll beat 90% of the people if you show up. Show up on time. Show up dressed, ready to play." So that's what you said. That's pretty much what you- Mark Miletello: That's right. I think like you said, it goes both ways. It's the manager's job to set the path, to set the scripts, to set the training, so help keep a good record. And to some degree, you can hold them accountable. I mean most of this business, we're looking for entrepreneurs, right? We're looking for the contracted entrepreneurial-minded individuals. So, I think really, that goes back to us as agents, is we must show up. We must show up ready to play. And to me, like I said, is that I could control my work ethic ... You and I talked about it on the last show, activity. That's the only thing I felt that I could control, and that came from the work ethic, right? I mean the activity didn't come from the thin air, it came from the work ethic put behind that. I remember my manager, first, I beat him in the office at least for the first year, and then I probably got lazy after that, I'm sure of that. But also, I would turn in a weekly report and you had me do this. My manager said that I built my own weekly report and I turned it in every week. I told him what I did wrong that week. I told him what I did right that week. And I told him next week what I was going to accomplish, and he told me I didn't have to do that. I said, "Well, I need to be accountable to someone and I will let myself down, but if I say and tell you, Garry, I'll do something I'll do everything I can to make sure that happens. I don't want to let you down, right?" So that really helped me in my work ethic, is to be accountable to someone. Garry Kinder: That's true, it's true. My brother and I, we had the first person ever inducted into the Gamma Hall of Fame, was our manager. He was the first person inducted. His name was Fred Holderman. Jack was in Mount Vernon, Illinois. I was in Bloomington, Illinois. He had an actual page that we went sent him every week, and it better be there Monday morning on what we did last week and what we got going next week. We had to do that, and he was dead on it. I mean if you missed a week he would call you up and let you know, "If you're going to do that, get out of here." He was tough. Mark Miletello: Well, I think we need to get back to that in leadership roles. And as agents, we should want to do that. Out of all the agents that I've mentored and coached, there's one agent out of all of them that I told this story too. And I told him what I did, and I told him how it helped me. And how you mentored me to great success. Still to this day, Garry, and I don't require that. As after this call, I'll probably go back to requiring that, but I asked that if you want to achieve greatness, here's what you do. And I've only had one agent in the last nine years, for the first year of this career, send me a weekly report. And as you're a dynamic growing team it's easy for someone to fly under the radar. And most people want to fly under the radar, but he didn't. Garry Kinder: Sure. Mark Miletello: If I get a report every week that says, here's ... What I was able to do in that weekly report, Garry is I was able to ... He wasn't flying under the radar. I looked at just those comments that he made, and I said, "I can help this guy." And I'd pick up the phone and we would talk about those things. I remember one , he said, "A client said not because of this, this, and this." And I said, "Would you mind getting that client on the phone?" He goes, "Yeah, but he said no." It was literally over $7 a month, this client, and I don't remember the whole story. But at the end of the conversation, the clients go, "I didn't know all that. I didn't realize that. I'd love to do business with this particular agent." So those weekly reports, that's on the agent as well. I think the agent must want to, or need to, be accountable to someone. And you helped me do that more than anyone in my career. I guess I was so very fortunate early on to have someone like you coaching me to do those things. That now I realize are the principle of The Common Denominator of Success. Garry Kinder: That really is true. I sent you a copy of this, right? Mark Miletello: Yes sir. Garry Kinder: Common Denominator, and anybody that's listening to us, did you sent them a copy of this, or are you going to? Mark Miletello: Well, this show is going to be on MarkMiletello.com. It's going to be on the new Vanmark.life, Van Mueller, and myself partnership. Garry Kinder: Oh good. Mark Miletello: And it will be linking everyone back to Kinder Brothers website where they can follow you, purchase your books. I just did not know if this article that you sent me was copyrighted or not, or how it could be used. Garry Kinder: It can be used because nobody owns this anymore. The guy that wrote it, as you know was, Albert E. N. Gray, who was a Vice President of Prudential, but now it's available to anybody. The company that does a lot of training in our industry, they have- Mark Miletello: NAFA? Garry Kinder: Yeah, NAFA. They have this available. Of course, Kinder Brothers has it available, so it's lived out its time. Mark Miletello: Okay, good. Garry Kinder: Yeah, there's a word for it, I can't come up with it right now. But there is a word that's. Mark Miletello: Statute of limitations. Garry Kinder: Yeah, there you go. Mark Miletello: Something like that. But no, if I have you’re okay, then I'm sure that's good enough, and we will make it available. I've kept that in my file, probably one of the oldest and longest running articles, that no matter how many computers I've had over 20 years, I've kept this article, and I've gone back and read it from time to time. So, we will share that. Garry Kinder: That's good, because of people like you, and I have three or four or five others, that are throughout the industry and they read this every year. Every year they start the year by reading this Commons Denominators to Success. It won't go away. I won't change. It's just something that people ought to pay attention to, like some books that you want to read repeatedly. It only takes about 15, 20 minutes to read this. Mark Miletello: Well, you had mentioned making phone calls and memorizing scripts, keeping good records, of course. And I had mentioned work ethic. I think the last thing that pops out to me as one of the things that successful people do, no doubt, and I think now being on the management side of things I see it more than I did previously on the production side of the business, is continuing education, evolving our knowledge, acquiring designations. What do you say to those out there that have been in this business for 3, 5, 10 years, and how does it affect them not moving toward, let's say designations and things like that? And do you agree with me that, that is one of those things that successful people do? Garry Kinder: Oh yeah. Successful people, there you go again, do the things failing people don't like to do. And one of the things that successful people do in our industry is to read good materials. And to read things like The Common Denominators of Success. Reading a good book. At Kinder Brothers, we have 11 books and five or six of them are for management, and five or six of them are for agents. But everybody needs to read books. Everybody needs to study, and they need to read good books. Mark Miletello: Well, I think I would, over the last few years, I've been working on building a training platform at Vanmark.life. I've been working on building duplicated ... Say's, duplicatable systems of training video's, things like that. I myself have been so busy building that I have backed away from furthering my own education and growth. And since this podcast has started and I've been interviewing the greatest A-list talent that our industry has to offer, people like yourself, and Van Miller, and Tom Hegna, and on and on and on. I've kind of been forced to read their book before I have them on the show. And I've got a lot of great talent lined up that I'm in the process of reading four books at one time. I don't know, it's like re-energizing me, Garry. It's reshaping the way I think and feel. I don't know, I think sometimes we forget that we forget what you just said. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Well, it's an old cliché, but readers are leaders, and leaders are readers. There's no question about it. I have met very, very few people in my career that are outstanding that don't come back and say, "I read this book. Have you read this book? Have you read this book?" They're people that are reading books all the time. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: And then there are books marked that should be read every year. And this little Common Denominator of Success should be read by everybody at least once a year. And when you do that, like I read this, this week ... When you read this you say to yourself, "You know what? I forgot that and I'm glad I'm reading that. I forgot that." So, there are certain things, like the book, Think and Grow Rich, by Napoleon Hill, should be read every year, by everybody that's listening to us. Mark Miletello: Well, let's talk about your books, Garry. I mean you've written 11 books. Last show we talked about The Professional Sales Process. We talked about for managers, Building the Master Agency. I think you've probably written more books in this industry than anyone that I know of, and, the most popular and most read books. What do you suggest ... obviously Think and Grow Rich, by Napoleon Hill, Albert E. N. Gray's, The Common Denominator to Success? What I've given our listeners on our website is, I list a, My Library, which is about 30 to 40 books. I think a lot of agents out there, Garry, especially agents that aren't plugged into maybe a company that promotes or they're not connected to an industry organization, there's a lot of those out there. So, I think sometimes they don't know where to go. They don't know where to start. They just read a book here and there because they come across it. One of my missions has been, Garry, is to provide a list of some of the greatest books. So, everyone that I have on this show, either on the air or off the air, I try to get a list of their three to five greatest books that they've read. And so, it's growing my library, but when Tom Hegna or Garry Kinder tells me that I should read this book, I think it's important that I should read it. So Think and Grow Rich, by Napoleon Hill, your books, The Professional Sales, are there any other designations, if you will, or books that we should definitely shoot to acquire? Garry Kinder: Well, let me be a little bit in giving you information about one of our last books that I wrote, and I dedicated it to my brother, Jack, when he had his stroke, but it's, 50 Lessons in 50 Years. I got people in there that I've known over the years, but it's 50 lessons and where did I get my lessons? Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: 50 Lessons in 50 Years. So that's a book that I would recommend to people. Now there are other books, like Hegna, I like his books. I like people that are making the million-dollar roundtable. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: People that are producing at a high level and they've written some good books for us to read. Mark Miletello: Yeah, they're not just talking about it, they're doing it. Garry Kinder: That's right. That's right. Mark Miletello: Well Garry, thank you for the time on this show. We'll wrap up here. I want to ask you this, do you ever plan on retiring? Garry Kinder: No, I don't, if I'm healthy. It seems like I talk to somebody about that, what seems like every day, but I know it's not every day. But I've talked to two people about ... they've asked me if I want to retire? I'm like, "I'm not retiring." If I have good health and as long as I'm excited about what I'm doing I'm just going to keep on working. That's one of the great things about our business, and that is some people get out to 45, 50, 55, and retire, and that's okay. I'm okay with that. I say God bless them, they've had a good career. But then there are others that I ... and you named a couple of them here today, but there are some other people ... The great thing about our industry is you can continue to produce and continue to be part of the industry and never bother anybody in the industry. But work with clients that love to have you work with them. Mark Miletello: Well, I think whenever we go back to talking about The Common Denominator of Success, I think one thing that I've gained from associating with our industries greats, is that when you have a career that is rewarding as yours has been, I think it's no longer work. It's work for those that are struggling, that are not doing the things that successful people do, it's work. And you can't wait to retire. You can't wait for something bigger and better. But it seems to me, and I knew what your answer was before I ask, and I just wanted to hear it from you. You love this business, it shows. You love this career. And its just part of who you are, Garry, and we know that, the people that know you, and the people that have followed you. It's part of who you are, isn't it? Garry Kinder: Yeah, it really is. I would say one last thing in this regard because many times I've said to people ... As you know I'm a bible student, and I read the bible. I teach the bible. But I tell people, "I can't find any place in that bible that talks about retirement, not one place." It talks about doing this. It talks about doing that, talks about this. So, I'm for people that want to retire. Mark, a lot of people in our industry that retire, they go do something else. Charity, I could name you the name of the people that have retired and have taken on charity. Do work for a charity they can contribute to. Mark Miletello: It's just highly active people in this industry, right? It takes that ... maybe nervous energy in the beginning, but high energy throughout your career, right? Garry Kinder: Yeah, it's true. It's true. I hit my office virtually every day somewhere between 7:30 and 8:00. Mark Miletello: And that's after working out and running. So, Garry, you are amazing. If there's something, and I know because I know the fellow you are and the friendship that we have, that we're going to have you back on the show in the future as this show gets up and running and the following starts. But if in fact, this was your last interview with me, your last show with me, is there something that you would like to tell the agents out there, the agents that are listening to this? Garry Kinder: Well, I would say that no matter what your position is, whether it's management, whether it's an agent, whatever you're producing, you ought to have goals. And you need to have goals for the year, and then you have goals for the week. Now, you can do it your way, I'm talking to the people that are listening. But you can do it your way, but you ought to have a goal for the year, January through December, a goal. And then have a goal for every week. This is my goal for next week. This is what I got to get done. Then you measure that, and you keep track of that every week. But then you put it into some type of notebook so that at the end of the year you can look at it and see ... Now, let's see, here's what I did every week. Here's where I took a vacation. Here's where I didn't do very well. But here's what I did get done, and I did reach my annual goal. Goals are set to be met. Goals are set to be met. So, you want to have goals that can make you stretch but you can reach them. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Because you want to make them right. Mark Miletello: Well, once again, you've come back to accountability. So, I agree to the importance of accountability, whether it be goal setting, tracking, measuring, monitoring, I think that's the basis. That's the foundation of a successful agent. That's the foundation of everything that you've taught me. So, Garry, I want to tell you again, thank you for being a return guest on the show. Thank you for the information that you've shared and allowing us to get some insight from you. I would encourage everyone that's listening to this to go to the Kinder Brother ... you can Google Garry, G-A-R-R-Y Kinder. You can come to my site MarkMiletello.com or Vanmark.life, V-A-N-M-A-R-K.life. And of course, you will be able to find the link. You'll find out how to reach ... I will make it available how to access everything that Garry Kinder has out there. So, I just got to tell you how much you mean to me and my career. And it's an honor and a privilege to have you on the show yet again, Garry. Thank you. Garry Kinder: It's my pleasure, and trust this is helpful to the people. If they'll call me, write me, I'll tell them the kind of books they ought to get that is from Kinder Brothers and what other kinds we have that we recommend from other sources. Mark Miletello: You have a great organization there and I've spoken to many people in your organization. So, hey, if you like what you hear on this show, please go to iTunes and rate us. Rate and review, so that others can find it. Once again, thank you Garry, and thank you for the followers and listeners out there. Garry Kinder: Glad to do it.