Building Trust and Unity in a Fast-Growing Church: Drew Karschner’s Insights on Empathy and Authenticity

unSeminary Podcast

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. This week Drew Karschner is joining us. He’s the Lead Pastor at Northridge Church in Rochester, New York – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country.

While church growth is a blessing, it often comes with hardships that must be navigated carefully. Whether your church is wrestling with racial tensions, political division, or simply difficult life events, your leadership skills and resilience will be tested. Tune in as Drew shares how to foster an environment where all voices are heard, lead with empathy and understanding, and build the resilience of your staff.

• Acknowledge the hard times. // Church leaders often find themselves in a position where they must balance optimism with realism. You may be trying to cast situations in a hopeful light when people aren’t ready to see it. Acknowledge when things are hard and be honest with your staff and congregation about the challenges they face. Make space for lament and empathize with your congregation’s struggles, but also cast a vision for the future and where God is leading you to go.
• Be open and honest. // People want their leaders to be real; they know when you aren’t being authentic in your leadership. Drew believes that being real and honest with your congregation helps to bridge the gap between different perspectives within the church.
• Be a “church in the middle.” // If churches want to grow and reach their communities, by definition they have to get used to a wide variety of people. Rather than taking a polarized stance, Northridge Church seeks to empathize with all the people they shepherd in order to lead them all to Jesus. Listening to different perspectives and engaging in conversations that may be uncomfortable are necessary for growth. This approach has allowed the church to grow in unity and diversity as they strive to represent the entire community.
• Navigate through the pain. // Leadership can take a toll on you personally, particularly when navigating pain and conflict. Your capacity is often determined by the amount of pain you can endure. Yet Drew expresses that it is a joy to navigate through the pain and see how God uses it on the journey. Similarly, it’s important to maintain relationships and trust even when faced with challenges. Resist the urge to become isolated and stay open to connection and support from others.
• Create open conversations. // It’s critical to build a resilient team so that you can stand strong together when facing difficult times. Hold open conversations with the church staff so people can talk about their feelings surrounding complex issues. Create a safe space for expression and dialogue to help people heal. Drew also maintains an open-door policy, letting his staff know that he’s available to them.
• Let staff know how valuable they are. // Staff members want to know they’re valuable. They want to be paid well, but churches don’t always have the budget to give their staff the money they wish they could. However, you can come up with creative ways to let your team know they are appreciated. Northridge Church demonstrates this in a variety of ways, from monthly catered lunches and family retreats, to honoring staff members with sabbaticals for their service, gift cards and more.

You can learn more about Northridge Church at www.northridgerochester.com.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Man, I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. You’re gonna wanna lean in for this one. Today, we’ve got Drew Karschner with us. He is the lead pastor at Northridge Church. This is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And I can tell you, it’s in a part of the country that frankly, they don’t make fast growing churches there. Rochester, New York – they’ve got three locations if if I’m counting correctly, and they aim to make more and better followers of Jesus by creating environments ah for people to belong, ah to belong, sorry belong, believe in Jesus, and become more like him. Ah Drew, so glad you’re here today. Thanks for for being on the show.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, dude, I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Rich Birch — Nice to get a chance to connect. I’ve actually had a little bit of a chance to interact over the years with Northridge. This is a fantastic church. And so I’m pumped to get a chance for to introduce you to some new friends. So kind of fill in the picture. Tell us a bit more about Northridge. Kind of give us the flavor of the church. Kind of tell us a little bit of the story.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, we’re your typical modern church. We got we’re multi-sites. We have three locations. We aim to saturate Rochester with the gospel. We’re growing. It’s amazing to see what what God’s been doing in an area where I feel like the church has been forgotten. Um he’s bringing it what’s cool about Northridge is he’s really bringing people who with no church background and they’re experiencing and getting to know and growing in Jesus. And so, um man, I love it here. Rochester is our home and I love taking back what the what feels like the enemy stole.

Rich Birch — Oh, so good. So good. Well, I know that leading in a fast growing church, it’s just easy all the time. There’s just never any problems. Obviously, that’s tongue in cheek, obviously leading. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your your kind of history with Northridge to kind of set up the context? How long have you been there? Kind of tell us a little bit of that story.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I’ve been at Northridge for about eight years. Um It was really an answer to prayer. I served in the South for 10, 12 years in ministry. And I’m from the North. So Ashley and I started to have kids, and we’re like, okay, God, like it would be awesome if you brought us home. And Northridge was an answer to prayer. And so it’s like you said, it’s just been an easy, amazing eight years, right? Seamless, no problems, perfect picture of what I wanted it to be.

Rich Birch — Yeah, obviously tongue in cheek. There’s obviously always a certain amount of hard stuff that we’ve got to navigate in, ah you know, in any church. But we were joking about this before we got started. I, you know, I think there’s lots of people that say, man, it’d be so great to lead in a fast growing church. I’ve had a chance to do that. But it is ah just a lot of hard work. There’s always seems to be something going on.

Rich Birch — Kind of tell us a bit about that. Give us some context. What would be some of the things that come to mind when you think about navigating kind of difficult situations as a lead pastor of a fast growing church?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, just for the record, I was one of those young bucks who thought leading a a large church would be amazing. And let me just preface this. It is amazing. It’s a blessing from God. But sometimes blessings from God comes through difficulties. And so over eight years, we’ve had to navigate some hardships, right? From, you know, COVID was just a wild, transition disaster of like, what what in the world do we lead? And to make matters worse for me, um my dad died surprisingly two months before COVID ever came out.

Rich Birch — Oh wow.

Drew Karschner — So like, I’m trying to navigate grief and lead a church through a really difficult time from disease to racial tensions. Um We had racial tensions in downtown Rochester. One of the clips on the news was right in our backyard.

Rich Birch — Wow. Okay.

Drew Karschner — Um, so we’ve had a lot of staffing issues…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drew Karschner — …transitions. And so I, you know, when things are going good, I have this running joke with our executive pastor. We’re all like waiting for the shoe to drop. Like what…

Rich Birch — Waiting for the other shoe.

Drew Karschner — …what’s coming next.

Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s that’s incredible. What about, you know, so when you think about these things, um I’m sure you’ve had a chance to reflect a little bit on them. What would be you know some of your go-to kind of advice or axioms that you would give to another lead pastor or another, you know, leader when they’re trying to navigate some of these? What would be some of those things that kind of come to top of mind for you?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one of the biggest thing I’ve I’ve learned is usually when you’re leading people, there’s two camps, right? You have your half glass full, and you have your half glass empty people, right?

Rich Birch — So true.

Drew Karschner — I am a positive person, okay? And so like, it doesn’t matter what I’m going through, you can ask my wife, my favorite expression is, “the good news is, baby,” because I can see light in any darkness. Here’s the problem when you’re leading people is you might be casting that light and they can’t see it. And so one thing that I’ve learned when you go through a hard thing with a team or a church or a business or whatever it is, you have to be willing to admit it sucks.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — You have to be willing to just be honest with ah you’re the people you’re leading. Like, guys, this is hard. And really meet people in the midst of the hurt or what they’re feeling. Because there have been times where I’ve tried to lead and just just express the positive, express the positive…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …and and I really lost trust because people are wondering, like, does he not see what I’m seeing?

Rich Birch — Right, yeah.

Drew Karschner — Like, is he not feeling what I’m feeling? And you can almost alienate people who are feeling different than you. And so I’ve learned, hey, man, I gotta to be willing to admit the hardship and not try to spin it in a positive way, but just sit in the darkness, right?

Drew Karschner — I think this is scriptural, right? Lamenting is not something we love to do, but it’s something we need to do. And I’ve learned, as a positive person, it’s okay sometimes to just admit when things are hard and difficult.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I can see that tension. I know as a leader, you know, by definition, we’re trying to move people from where they are to ah to a more desirable future. And so we live in the future. We live in the like, hey, how things could be. And when things are negative, part of what our job is to try to cast a vision for a better future.

Drew Karschner — Yep.

Rich Birch — And but if you’re so far out in front of people, man, you can just let people look at you like, who is that guy? That guy’s just not, he doesn’t live in the same world that that you and I live in. How do you, how do you manage that tension? Maybe give us an example of that where you’ve tried to acknowledge where we actually are, but in order, but also try to catch a cast a vision for a better future. What’s that look like?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think just admitting it’s hard, you capture those people, right? I’m not saying, hey, we need to camp out in the darkness and get to a place, like I think people, you can go too far that way as well, where you just depress people and they can’t see.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — So the the hard job as a leader is to help not lead half your church, but all of your church…

Rich Birch — So good.

Drew Karschner — …including people who are negative and people who are positive and say, hey, I’m going to walk with all of you. And if that means I got to admit some things are hard, but I’m also going to say, hey, this is hard, but here’s where we’re going. I’m gonna cast a vision to like, God’s gonna use this; he’s gonna move us to a better place. But some sometimes we have to admit God uses, like almost all the time God uses hardships in our lives…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …to make us more like him. And so you gotta be able to admit the hardship, but cast a vision for the future and where you want people to go. And I think when you do that, you lead everybody, not just people like you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. There definitely seems like there’s a generational thing. I know when I first started in ministry, when I looked at the kind of generation that was ahead of us, um that generation, I think people were actually looking for leaders to be completely disconnected from real life. It was like they were, you know, they were wholly different, where I i don’t think that’s true now. I think people are looking for authenticity.

Drew Karschner — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How do you balance that out as a key ah key leader? Obviously part of what we’re talking about here is this authenticity to kind of acknowledge where we are, but that also bleeds into your teaching, bleeds into, you know, when you communicate. What, how does authenticity work out in your, in your leadership?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I’m you get what you get, right? Whether you like it or not.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — And I’m real. I think you’re right. I think the culture is shifting and people just want real, authentic you. And when you’re not that, they can tell. They’re really good at being like…

Rich Birch — Yeah, they can smell that for sure.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, you’re faking it.

Drew Karschner — And so I just be me, right? And God wired me the way I am. And I’m an emotioner, emotional guy, I’m a feeler. And so when I feel something, people are going to see it in my face, they’re gonna, they’re gonna see it in my expressions. And so I am real, when I lead. And so when things are hard, I’m just like, guys, this, this is hard. And man, I don’t want to be here. When things are good, I’m gonna you’re gonna see it in my face, I’m gonna be full of joy. I’m gonna walk around joking. And so I’m like, If I got a bad day, there’s going to be times where people are like, you’re having a bad day.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — I’m not going to try to spin things. And I’ve learned that. When I was a young, insecure leader, I think I think some of it is we have to be secure leaders, right? And we have to be OK leading people from a place of hurt or pain and letting them in into that. And I think some people are afraid to do that. I was when I was younger, right?

Drew Karschner — I wanted people to like me. I wanted them to think like, oh, everything is, you know, rainbow peeking unicorns. Everything’s good. Um but what I failed to realize is people saw past that anyway. So I might as well let them in and see what what the real Drew is feeling and going through.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Okay. That’s so good. I love that. That’s a great word, uh, for folks, you know. Hopefully we can go there, hopefully our our relationship can sustain this. You know, so many of our churches over the last number of years have been navigating, um, you know, racial injustice in our, in our communities. And, you know, as you, you mentioned this, you know, right off the top, obviously Rochester was, was on all our news stories, you know, for a long time there in, particularly in 2020. And then. But, you know, that those issues, I know when we’re we’re not in the kind of the heat of it or not in the neighborhood where those things are going on, it can kind of slip out of our mind and be like, okay, that was something that happened.

Rich Birch — I’m sure leading, you know, that has has been a continued dynamic for your church. Unpack what that looked like for you. What did you learn through that, you know, that this season? I don’t want to talk about this, even bringing this up, at it’s like, how do I talk about this in a way that’s you know that’s appropriate, but I’d love to learn from you. I think so many leaders that we’ve I’ve talked to over the last number of years, when we say, hey, what are the things we’ve wrestled through? This has been an issue. This is in um, you know, this is on their list of stuff they’re wrestling with. Obviously unique situation where where you are in Rochester. Ah talk to us about that.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one of the greatest things I learned was the value of having different perspectives in my life.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — Disagreeing perspectives. I think our culture has just gotten to the place where we dig our heels in the camp that we live in.

Rich Birch — Oh, it’s good.

Drew Karschner — And we only surround ourselves with people who affirm what we already believe. And one thing that I did during this whole unrest was like, man, I’m going to hear from different sides. And what it did is it allowed me to empathize with all the people that I shepherd, right?

Drew Karschner — I have ah, like one of my big passions is leading all of my church. And we we’re in Rochester, so we have all kinds of people who believe different things about different different areas of topics. And so I called ourselves the church in the middle. We weren’t we weren’t going to pick a side. We were going to stand up, empathize with everybody to lead everybody to Jesus.

Rich Birch — That’s good, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — And so I think it’s really important to be able to hear opposing sides and being able to say, hey, what what’s the chicken and what’s the bones and and and leave some on the table…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Drew Karschner — …and just be okay. People are afraid to read people who they disagree with. And I just think it it makes us shallow.

Rich Birch — Well, and there’s no doubt that’s a dynamic that I think many of our churches are facing as we grow, which is we we have to get used to a wide variety of people. We want our churches to be an expression of our community, which means by definition, we can’t narrowcast.

Drew Karschner — Right.

Rich Birch — We can’t just be like, hey, we’re going to be assert. And we’ve seen some churches do this in the last number of years where they’ve pivoted one way or the other. And Uh, part of what I admire about your church is you’ve tried to say, like you say, their church in the middle, we’re trying to be a place for all of Rochester. Um, which I think is really commend commendable.

Rich Birch — How have you been able to do that? It’s like, ah you know, I was talking to a friend recently that was wrestling with similar issues and I was like, I to them, this wasn’t to you. I said, you know, I feel like you’re trying to get people to move, to walk across the road, but you’re, so you’re now stuck in the middle and it’s like just trying to dodge cars. Um, how have you been able to, to lead in that space? You know, what has there been anything, you know, that you’ve been kind of, as you’ve been processing and learning that has kind of enabled you to continue to, uh, you know, to lead well in that, like you say, and you know, church for everybody.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think the one thing I’ve learned is being in the middle is the most painful place…

Rich Birch — Oh yeah. Good.

Drew Karschner — …because you got people yeah people shooting you at both sides, right?

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true.

Drew Karschner — So it’s not a fun place to be, um but I think it’s the right place to be, at least for our context. I think some people, maybe it would be different. Um but I think being in the middle allowed us to speak to both sides, to guide both sides, not just speak to one side of of the coin or whatever the argument was.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — And I think it gave us influence um in both camps. And what was beautiful is we saw God grow our church in unity and diversity, which was something that we’d been praying for. And so we stood up for—it was so hard—but like we stood up for cops and minorities at the same time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — We we didn’t we weren’t like, we’re gonna, we’re not picking sides here. We we clearly said that.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Drew Karschner — Like no, we’re not picking sides. We’re going to stand up for both people because both people deserve it. And so I think people appreciated the realness and the authenticity and the fight we had for everybody.

Rich Birch — Well, they’ yeah, and it’s a very Jesus approach. You know, I commend you on that. You know, we know this, that people, when they would have looked at Jesus’s closest group of friends, his followers, they would have said, those people don’t belong together.

Drew Karschner — Right.

Rich Birch — Like those, that is a crowd of people who don’t normally hang out. And I love that you’re trying to live that out, um you know, in in today. Were you going to say something else, sir? I think I cut you off.

Drew Karschner — No, you’re good. I was just gonna say in that journey, I’ve had to deal with a lot of pain.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — And I think that’s one thing I’ve also learned in leadership is like, the, your your capacity of leadership is ultimately the amount of pain that you can endure. My mentor told me that and I was like, Oh, wait. Do I want to do this? But…

Rich Birch — Yes! Yes, true.

Drew Karschner — It is a joy, honestly, to navigate pain and see how God uses it. And to stand up at the end of the day and be like, that was worth it. Man, God used that.

Rich Birch — Well, why don’t we talk about that then on the personal level? You know, I love that Sam Chan idea for sure that you’ve brought up. What what have been some of the practices, some of the habits, some of your go to ways that are healthy ah to deal with the pain that you’ve experienced in leadership over these years?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, ah one of the things that I’ve tried to do is not stop trusting people.

Rich Birch — So good.

Drew Karschner — In ministry, um it’s so easily to become isolated and alone. And when you’re isolated and alone, when you walk through pain, it just it it causes you to become recluse and introverted. And what I’ve learned is I can’t allow myself to do that. No matter how much pain, no matter how much people have maybe turned their back on me, walked away, said hard things, I constantly have to open myself up to relationships because I need them to help me navigate and to pray for me as I lead our church.

Drew Karschner — And so one of the things that is so hard for me is trust. But God keeps teaching me I have to trust the right amount of people and the right people and because I I need them as much as they need me.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I know our friend, Carey Nieuwhof, talks about the fact that, you know, when you’re leading for any amount of time in a local church, there is, ah I think the phrase he uses, unreconciled loss, ah you know, ah unreconciled relational loss, where you you get used to, like, people just leave, or they you know they they storm out and they they really have no intention of wanting to ever reconcile with you. And that, man, you’ve got to deal with that. If you don’t, you’ll end up in a really a really negative place. So, that’s good.

Rich Birch — What about your staff team? In the midst of all of this, it’s one thing for you to be in a healthy place, it’s one thing for you to be able to deal with the pressure. How have you been able to bring your your team along in navigating hard things? What have been some of those practices that have been helpful, as you’ve looked at with the you know the people that you’re you’ve been given to lead?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one thing that we’ve done pretty well is when we do face hard stuff staff-wide, we have open conversations. So we gather everybody together and we just say, guys, how are you feeling about this?

Drew Karschner — How are you processing this? And we we literally, and we’ve we’ve spent, you know, two hours in the room just letting people express, ask questions. You know, hey, this is a safe place and these are hard things. And so um and then we we, outside that large group, we give people a chance to say, hey, if you need to talk to anybody, you know, I have an open door policy. I think every pastor says that, but I genuinely like, dude, I’ll cancel any meeting for our staff, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — They they they to me, they’re my family. Um I’ve lived far away from family, and so the church staff has become my family when I was away from family. And so, man, I love our staff. I deeply, genuinely care for our staff, more than they probably know, and I should probably tell them more. Um but anything and everything, you just come talk to me and I’ll I’ll fight for you. I’ll I’ll cry with you. I’ll mourn with you. We’ll laugh together. Whatever you need, I want to be that for you. And so we just have open dialogues. We try to build a culture of you know just honesty and openness. And I think it’s allowed us to heal and just talk about hard things.

Rich Birch — Talk to me about what that looks like with with, I don’t know whether it’s rhythms or like, how often are you meeting, that sort of thing. That I know, you know, you talk about the family feel, I think we can have that early on in our churches, but as we grow, man, that’s hard to sustain, because you know the the family, it’s like the the family becomes a family business, becomes some sort of organism, then becomes an organization, then becomes a corporation. Like It’s very hard to fight that trend.

Drew Karschner — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Um how what’s that look like for you? How are you kind of keeping connected? Because your church is, you know, you continue to grow and add new people and add staff and all that. So talk us through that. What’s that look like?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I mean, you’re definitely right. The the larger you get, the larger your staff gets, the harder it it does get. And so I think you got to just put systems in place. One of the systems I’ve put in place, as I told my assistant, you need to schedule me time to float, right? To just go knock on staff doors…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — …and be like, yeah hey, how’s it going? How are you? Um we meet as a staff, you know. We have a staff meeting once a week, and so our our whole staff is together. We rub shoulders.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Drew Karschner — We have donuts. We have we actually have a lunch together once a month, so all staff…

Rich Birch — Okay.

Drew Karschner — We have lunch. It’s made. We bring it in, and we do training there. Um I’m a relational guy. So I feel for the lead pastor or the, you know, business owner who’s an introvert, I love people. Right? I’m in ministry because I genuinely love being around people.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — And so for me, being around our staff as much as I physically can within my job parameters is a joy to me. Um I think it’s one of my gifts. I’m a relational guy. And so I try to be around as much as I can. But I’ll be honest, right? I think there are some staff members that wish probably they had more time with me…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …or or whatever. And that’s why I try to at our staff meetings, and I need I honestly need to do a better job of reminding them: guys, if you need anything, my door is always open. Come see me. I’m available to you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. There is something about even just the like creating space, like you’re saying at staff meetings at once a month, kind of something a little more casual, having a meal together. I remember years ago, lead pastor I worked for, we were doing um, you know, it was like, we were serving a staff lunch, just, you know, it was like a buffet kind of thing. And I, it really stuck with me. He, he kicked this person off of serving and it was like, no, no, let me do that, I want to be… And a part of the reason why for that is, Hey, he wanted to see every single person as they went through, here’s your, whatever lettuce or whatever it was that he was, you know, dishing out. It’s like, uh, it would have been easy for him to just sit, sit on the side, talk to, you know, his other lead team folks or whatever.

Rich Birch — Uh, but he was going on his way to say, no, I want to make myself available. That’s, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s so good. Uh, good, good stuff.

Drew Karschner — One thing we do too is we do a staff retreat. So we’re getting ready to do it. We do two days in the Adirondacks.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice.

Drew Karschner — And we don’t we don’t schedule anything.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — So like it is basically, it’s for you, your spouse and your family. So you bring your kids, you bring the whole family.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Drew Karschner — And we want to just be together.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Drew Karschner — So we’re playing volleyball. I got no problem smashing a volleyball and in staff members faces, right? Like talking trash. Some of that is just builds that camaraderie, being together, eating together.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Drew Karschner — You know, something that we’ve, it’s expensive, but it’s it’s worth the dollars that it builds back into our team, and and the trust it builds just being present with each other.

Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s talk about that. That’s that’s incredible. I love that. I that’s ah what a cool thing. But that touches a bigger issue around, you know, generosity with staff. I’m sure it’s not just this thing in general, you’re trying to… I feel like there’s a balance in all that stuff. We’re always trying to figure out like, hey, you know, how do we how do we find ways to be generous to our people, you know, you know, it’s not just paying them while it’s all this, the kind of the full thing. What does that look like for you guys? How does that fit in your head around it? And what’s the connection between that and, and building a resilient team that can, that can deal with all this hard stuff when it comes?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one thing I’ve learned leading staff members is one of the biggest things they they want to know is that they’re valuable. And we often, you know, equal value to dollars and cents, but I’m not sure that’s accurate, right?

Drew Karschner — Obviously, people want to be paid well. So we we do our best. You know, I think some people lead from a place of being stingy. I just lead like, hey, I want to give as much as I can to our team and honor them.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Drew Karschner — I want them to feel valuable. But let’s be honest, we’ve we’ve served on ministry teams.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drew Karschner — We always wish we had more money.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Drew Karschner — Like the budget is the budget.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drew Karschner — So we’ve come up with creative ways to tell our staff they’re valuable. So like right now, um our worship pastor is on a five week sabbatical. And so we’ve created a system at 10 years, you get a sabbatical.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Drew Karschner — It doesn’t cost us anything, but it allows us to say, “You’re valuable to us.” We do anniversaries, we give away stuff, we play games together. We just try to build a culture that just constantly reminds our team, whether it’s dollars and cents, a gift card, a trip: we love you, you’re valuable to us.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah. And there’s something there around, you know, that I think a lot of times the comp… the pay compensation can just get lost in the, you know, you know, and an extra 500 bucks or whatever. It just doesn’t really go anywhere. But man, if you give that as like like you’re saying a gift or, uh, you know, something for the family or, you know, some sort of special experience to someone, man, that goes a long way. It, it, it seems it grabs people, people’s attention more. That’s uh, yeah, that’s really good. Good stuff.

Drew Karschner — Another thing I do, Rich, I think this might be one of the most impactful things I do at Christmas time. So we, if we do, we give out bonuses. I shoot a personal video to the family.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great.

Drew Karschner — It’s about two to three minutes long where I just honor their family, and I just speak from my heart. I’m not, it’s not, it’s not to say it’s different for every person, and I just tell them how much I value them, what I’ve seen from them in their year. You know, it’s what I call the new handwritten card. Because we have video, I’m a communicator. I hate writing on a card. It’s my handwritten video card to them, just literally honoring them.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — And I’ve gotten so much like good feedback from our team being like, you don’t know how much those words you said that my wife listened to meant to our family.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s, yeah, I I get choked up just thinking about that. That’s amazing. I love that. Like when you think about like somebody that’s serving out your staff on their staff and their kids get to see you, the lead pastor, honor their their mom or dad who’s serving on your team. And man, let’s talk about a context shifter for them. Like I know a mom or dad’s hardworking and they love their work, but the you know the person that’s in charge of that organization slowed down and said, hey, this is why I love you know, whoever this person is that’s serving on the team. That’s amazing.

Drew Karschner — Yeah. We get, we get the kids gifts as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Drew Karschner — So like when it comes to Christmas time, we’re not just blessing the employer because ministry is a family thing.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.

Drew Karschner — And so we want to break that PK mold.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — I want the kids of our team to be like, I’m a pastor’s kid. And at my church…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …that means something awesome. Not like, aw…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — …I got to, my dad’s got to do this. You know, my mom’s got to do this.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. That’s so cool. Well, Drew, this has been a great conversation today. Is there anything else you’d love to say just we wrap up around this whole thing around how, as a lead pastor, are you you know really handling, navigating some of the hard stuff that comes your way, or or or just anything in general, really, as we’re wrapping up today’s conversation?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I mean, I think through all the hard things, I’ve been reminded, man, we serve a God who’s so faithful. And through the hardship, like God’s always there with you. He walks with you through the hard things. And man, over and over again, as I see hard things coming over the horizon, man, I just know I’m not alone. I am not alone.

Rich Birch — Amen.

Drew Karschner — And what a, what a gift that is to walk with a God who sees the storm before it comes.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Thank you so much, Drew. Appreciate you being here. If we want to send people online to connect with you or with the church, where do we want to send them for that?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, you can go to NorthridgeRochester.com. Our emails are there. I mean, you can connect with me at my email, send me a text message, whatever. I’m um i’m open to whatever you contact, so.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks so much, Drew. Appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I appreciate you.