Ep. 36 - Lighting is Story (2023)

PuSh Play

Gabrielle Martin chats with lighting designer, photographer, writer and performer Itai Erdal.

Show Notes

Gabrielle and Itai discuss:

• How did your relationship with PuSh start?

• What inspires the effects and choices in your work?

• What is the world of international touring like?

• What was the genesis and process of How to Disappear Completely?

• What is Soldiers of Tomorrow and why does it need to be told today?

• What is the role of the lighting designer?

• What is the cultural context and significance of PuSh?

About Itai Erdal

An award winning lighting designer, photographer, writer and performer, Itai is the founder of The Elbow Theatre in Vancouver, for whom he co-wrote and performed in Soldiers of Tomorrow, Hyperlink, This Is Not A Conversation and A Very Narrow Bridge.

Itai has designed over 300 shows for theatre, dance and opera companies in over fifty cities around the world. Some of the companies he worked with include: Arts Club Theatre (16 shows), The Stratford Festival (11 shows), New Victory (Off Broadway), The Vancouver Opera, Vancouver Playhouse, Bard on the Beach, The Electric Company, National Arts Centre, Soulpepper, Tarragon, Factory, The Citadel, MTC, The Segal Centre, The Jerusalem Lab, Haifa Theatre, Tamasha, Box Clever and Teatro Villa Velha in Salvador, Brazil.

He worked with such choreographers as: Crystal Pite, Nigel Charnock, Noam Gagnon, Robert Hylton, Serge Bennathan, Kate Alton, Chick Snipper, Noa Dar, Susan Elliot, Idan Cohen and Toru Shimazaki.

Itai has won six Jessie Richardson Awards, a Dora Mavor Moore Award, a Winnipeg Theatre Award, the Jack King Award, a Guthrie Award, Victoria’s Spotlight Choice Award and the Design Award at the 2008 Dublin Fringe Festival. He was shortlisted to the Siminovitch Prize in 2018.

Itai’s first one-man show: How to Disappear Completely (The Chop, directed by James Long), premiered in 2011 and had 25 remounts in 21 cities. It won the best director award at the Summerworks Festival in Toronto, and was shortlisted to the Dublin Fringe Award, the Brighton Fringe Award and the Total Theatre Award at the 2014 Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

Soldiers of Tomorrow received Summerhall’s Lustrum Award and was nominated to an Offfest Award at the 2023 Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

Land Acknowledgement

This conversation was recorded on the unceded, stolen and ancestral territories of the Coast Salish Peoples: the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), colonially known as Vancouver.

It is our duty to establish right relations with the people on whose territories we live and work, and with the land itself.

Show Transcript

Gabrielle Martin 00:02

Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming, and in this special series of Push Play, we're revisiting the legacy of Push and talking to creators who have helped shape 20 years of innovative, dynamic, and audacious festival programming.

Gabrielle Martin 00:23

Today's episode features Itai Urdao and the 2023 Push Festival. Itai is a local lighting designer, playwright, and performer. He is the artistic director of the Albo Theater. His first play, How to Disappear Completely, has toured to 26 cities and won the Directional Award at the Summer Works Festival in Toronto.

Gabrielle Martin 00:42

His latest play, Soldiers of Tomorrow, won the Lustrom Award at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival and is touring today. Here's my conversation with Itai. I am here with Itai Urdao, and we're gonna be chatting about your relationship with Push.

Gabrielle Martin 00:59

You've been involved in many capacities as a lighting designer on some really iconic shows that we've already spoken about with some of our other interviewees. Also, Push's co -commission of one of your works in more recent years, but I just wanna start by acknowledging that we are here on the stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh,

Gabrielle Martin 01:23

and we are incredibly privileged to be on these lands. And in so -called Vancouver, yeah, we are in your home because we went to a cafe to shoot on a patio, but it was raining and loud and... Here we are.

Gabrielle Martin 01:36

Yes, here we are. So just to, yeah, recap. So your relationship started with Push from the very first festival. So you were a lighting designer on the Empty Orchestra of Theatre Replacement for 2005.

Itai Erdal 01:51

Yeah, it was 2005, the first one, I think maybe it was the second.

Gabrielle Martin 01:54

So the series, the performance series, started 2003 and then officially it became a festival in 2005.

Itai Erdal 02:00

Yes, yes.

Gabrielle Martin 02:03

And then you were also a lighting designer on Crime and Punishment, New World.

Itai Erdal 02:07

Both of them iconic shows, really, because Empty Orchestra was the very first show that Theatre Replacement has ever done. And I designed the set on that and lights. We did it at the dance center and then on the dance center was the director.

Itai Erdal 02:21

And it was really a fantastic show. Michael Bayamomoto and James Long were both very young. They were both in it and they were singing. The show Empty Orchestra means, and that's what karaoke is called in Japanese.

Itai Erdal 02:34

It's an empty orchestra. So it was a show kind of about karaoke and it was a very dark apocalyptic play about people falling in love in very dark, futuristic, environmentally disastrous future where Vancouver was all covered in snow.

Gabrielle Martin 02:51

So we've talked to Jamie about this, Jamie and Micah, but I say, yeah, but Jamie, because, uh, I think that was the project that, or maybe it was Micah who was saying that, um, you know, at one point they had an early version of the work in Darren was really unimpressed and made them go back to the drawing board.

Gabrielle Martin 03:07

And so it was a, a process. I mean, I guess as any first works, uh, uh, the creative processes for, you know, your first works, it's bound to have those kind of, uh,

Itai Erdal 03:18

It's funny you should mention that, because I just talked about Kathleen Oliver, who was the publicist for the show. And we saw an early version that they did at the Russian Hall, and they asked us to come, and Kathleen and I loved it.

Itai Erdal 03:35

And then they went and worked with Darren for a few weeks, and then asked us to come back. And we looked at each other, and we were like, we thought it was better before. And Darren said, oh, I'm sorry I ruined your show, and we were like, no, no, no, that's not what we meant.

Itai Erdal 03:49

We tried to take it back, but it was too late. But then they went back to the drawing board, and they changed a bunch of things, and they sort of got back some of them. But it was a very tumultuous process, yeah.

Gabrielle Martin 03:59

So it wasn't Darren's fault, it was just an awkward stage in the process.

Itai Erdal 04:04

Maybe, maybe, yeah, but it was very interesting to be asked to watch the piece so early and then give our feedback. And also, I was very young and new to the collaborative process and maybe didn't know how to speak about the work in progress, and so it's possible.

Itai Erdal 04:24

So I was also a very fresh new immigrant to this country and, you know, as an Israeli, I have such different sensitivities and sensibilities than Canadians, and in retrospect, I was probably insensitive.

Itai Erdal 04:39

But I loved the final show. I did love the final show.

Gabrielle Martin 04:44

And you were also working on crime and punishment, and we've also spoken to Kamiar about that project and just what a kind of colossal ambitious project that was and

Itai Erdal 04:53

That remains one of the best shows I've ever worked on in my life, Crime and Punishment, and a big fan favorite. People still bring it up all the time. James Fagan Tate was just a genius in adapting these novels, these huge stories on the stage with Julissa Pankanya, who wrote the music and performed it live.

Itai Erdal 05:13

And so there was 20 chorus members, and we painted, and the set by Brian Pollack was also stunning. There was a square, like a grid for each chorus member to stand. And so there was like 20 people. There was 20 people, and then principals, and then the musicians.

Itai Erdal 05:33

So there was maybe 26, 27 people on stage in total. And Jimmy takes these epic novels, and with music, and with those little chorus members singing, beautifully singing, and simple choreography that Jimmy did that was so effective.

Itai Erdal 05:47

And that was the first of many shows like that that we did. We did The Idiot, and The Life Inside, and with the same team.

Gabrielle Martin 05:59

were doing the lighting design. Yep.

Itai Erdal 06:01

For all of them, yeah, yeah, we did at least 10 shows together with the same team of Mara Gottler doing costumes, Jelisa doing sound, Brian Dinsett and me doing lights, and then Jimmy kept hiring us and adapting these big novels.

Itai Erdal 06:15

But Crime and Punishment was the first, it's not the first time we worked together, but the first time that it was this huge, ambitious project that sort of the whole world saw what a genius James Fagan Tate was, and everybody wanted to do that kind of theater.

Itai Erdal 06:32

It was physical theater that was driven by music and that had simple, beautiful, super effective choreography and the choreography and the music and the lighting. All the design elements were so naturally intertwined together, were so organically combined that that's why I still, to this day, when I put a portfolio together, I always put pictures from Crime and Punishment because it was also my first time when I sort of dared to do a show only with sidelighting.

Itai Erdal 07:03

I didn't have any front lights almost at all.

Gabrielle Martin 07:07

choice, what inspired that choice, or what was the desired effect.

Itai Erdal 07:10

Well, it was a very dark play in a way, and side lighting highlights the body more than the face, you know, and front lights is great to get the tingle in the eye that everybody loves in musicals and in children's play, but it flattens everything, and side lighting makes everything three -dimensional.

Itai Erdal 07:31

And so by lighting everything from the side, we gave everything depth, and then they would just, it was very easy for somebody to just completely disappear into the darkness, and we really wanted that.

Itai Erdal 07:47

And the side lights were all open white, which is very, very warm, so it felt like candlelit a little bit.

Gabrielle Martin 07:56

You're making me want to see it. I mean, of course I would love to see it, but the way you're pretty into life.

Itai Erdal 08:00

There's an archival. You should watch it. I don't know why nobody produced it after. I mean, there was talk. BAM wanted it in New York and Soul Paper wanted it and I think it was very close to going to some places, but it ended up not going anywhere, which is another reason that it's such an iconic production because so few people got to see it.

Gabrielle Martin 08:18

So was that the beginning of your relationship with Push in the 2005 festival, or were you already working on some of the projects of the series?

Itai Erdal 08:29

That was my first time.

Gabrielle Martin 08:30

men armor or katina done

Itai Erdal 08:32

I did work with Katrina and Norman before, but that was my first time. And I remember when the whole push started as a reading series between TuxyTone and Rumble.

Gabrielle Martin 08:50

So yeah, you've referred to the many productions that you were involved in as a designer over the years Namely with new world after that first year. No, whatever

Itai Erdal 09:00

Everybody really, so many people, so many shows they did were, ended up being part of Push that were like not, yeah there was a show I did from Manitoba Theatre for Young People, about Rick Hansen that ended up being part of Push and there was other shows with Jimmy but then were not New World and then theatre, other theatre replacement shows I'm pretty sure Broiler was also part of Push, I'm not 100% sure but other theatre replacement shows that I've done but also Norman had these breakfasts that he would invite you to come and meet other artists and so for a few years whether I was in the festival designing or not I would get invited to just meet with artists from around the world and that was just a fantastic thing to do and I met some Argentinians and Germans and I remember Limini Potokol came for a few years in a row and Gob Squad and Sishi Pop are all from Berlin and I speak German and so but we spoke English but I got to hang out with them and then go and see their shows and those are some of the best shows I've seen in my life,

Itai Erdal 10:16

really. Some of the shows that those companies that I mentioned, those three companies from Gob Squad is half England but these are the two are Berlin companies, oh no, not Berlin, Limini Potokol is somewhere else in Germany but Sishi Pop is Berlin, I've done some of the strongest work I've ever seen, same with La Maria from Argentina.

Gabrielle Martin 10:38

We spoke about with Boca de lupo, but yeah that 2011

Itai Erdal 10:43

That's the first time that I met these guys and we became friends and then I ended up seeing them in a lot of other festivals around the world. Because then I would travel with how to disappear completely and I would see the same people that I met at Push in other places and you realize the world of international touring is actually very small.

Gabrielle Martin 11:02

And these breakfasts were just at a cafe or at somebody's house.

Itai Erdal 11:07

No, it was always, Norman had his famous favorite place was La Bodega and it was always at La Bodega. Sometimes it was breakfast, sometimes it was late night, it was always paid for by push, which was really nice.

Itai Erdal 11:18

But it was just in, it felt so privileged to be invited to meet with artists from around the world. And I always loved how the festival wasn't just for us to see what the world has to offer, but they also wanted the world to see what we have to offer.

Itai Erdal 11:33

And so I feel like, yeah, working with those people has opened me up as an artist and inspired me. I ended up taking a workshop with Gop Squad, the theater replacement did. So I've worked with them for two weeks and let some of the most eye -opening and inspiring work that I've ever done that maybe want to write and perform and do other things.

Itai Erdal 12:00

And I met them through the push festival. So I think the first kick show I saw of theirs was Kixen.

Gabrielle Martin 12:07

What year, do you remember what year you did that workshop?

Itai Erdal 12:10

don't. It was at least 10 years ago. Maybe 10 years ago. So you had already created atmosphere completely? Yeah.

Gabrielle Martin 12:16

Okay, so you were already working as a director. Please no.

Itai Erdal 12:22

So, performer and writer, yeah, James Long directed How to Disappear, and then Anita Rochon has directed all my shows since, I've never directed them, but I've been writing and performing, and How to Disappear was also heavily influenced by Push, even though it was not at the Push Festival, we were in the very first Push -Off, which Theatre Replacement did, it wasn't even Theatre Replacement then actually,

Itai Erdal 12:44

no, it was Joyce, and yeah, it was not Theatre Replacement, I'm sorry, it was Joyce, and I forget who else, Joyce was the dance person, and there was a theatre person that they did Push -Off, and they asked me to do 10 minutes, and our show wasn't finished, we barely had, we had 10 minutes, but maybe we had half an hour of material, and we just chose 10 minutes, and I think we did the first 10 minutes of the show,

Itai Erdal 13:08

and the College Lab, which was also a brand new venue at the time, and that first Push -Off, the artistic director of On the Boards in Seattle was there, Lady Coplinski, and he immediately fell in love with the show, and came to me after, and I said, I want this show, and I'm going to tell my friends in Portland, and then the Portland People TBH Festival ended up taking it too, and the other person was there was Ken Gass from Factory Theatre,

Itai Erdal 13:38

and the same thing, he booked it on the spot, so even though the show was not even finished yet, because we did it at Push -Off, you got booked to Toronto, which led to many other gigs, and you got booked to Seattle and Portland, which was just a phenomenal experience to be able to take the show to the US, and I would have never gotten these producers to see the show if it wasn't for the Push Festival,

Itai Erdal 14:01

so Push has been instrumental in my career, like you said, on many, many different capacities, and many different, yeah.

Gabrielle Martin 14:09

from your artistry, had that opportunity over many years. And so How to Discipline Completely was my introduction to your work. I didn't get to see it back when it had just been premiered, but you shared an archival with me in 2021 when I had just started to push.

Gabrielle Martin 14:25

And that really made me interested to read the script that you were working on at the time for Soldiers of Tomorrow, which was incredibly powerful, jumped off the page. It was really a compelling read.

Gabrielle Martin 14:38

And we were in a position where we were able to come on board as a co -commissioner. And the work was presented at the 2023 Push Festival was premiered. Yeah, which and it was a we had great audiences.

Gabrielle Martin 14:49

And you also have such a community here because you know, your work has been prolific. And it was really just beautiful to follow that process and to see it realized, just you know, by very established artists, you know, you and Nita, artists who really like you know what you're doing and just to to benefit from the treatment that you gave the script was incredible.

Itai Erdal 15:17

Thank you. It was, again, I cannot tell you how Instrumental Push Festival was in creating that show because as a company, the album, my company, we're not on any operating funds. We just write project grants.

Itai Erdal 15:30

And so we just, we come up with a project, we write grants for it. We've been, thank goodness, pretty successful so far in getting those grants, but the grants are very limited in scope. You can only use them for what you said that you would use them for.

Itai Erdal 15:41

And therefore, it's always like barely scraping together enough money to do what you need to do. And creating a piece like this, and that's part of my company's mandate, is that I was determined to give things enough time.

Itai Erdal 15:54

I've seen so many shows do work that looks like it's a great workshop, but it's not ready. And so I was determined, also I'm a lighting designer, I don't need this as my livelihood. I have other means of income.

Itai Erdal 16:05

So I was determined to give the shows enough time and enough workshops until they're ready. And because we were commissioned by you and we got the Canada Council grant and not just one of them, we were able to do several workshops and work on it and work on it and work on it until it was ready.

Itai Erdal 16:20

And that's what made the show good, the time that you bought us by commissioning the piece. Because when you work with the money that is commissioned, I don't, the Push Festival didn't ask me, what did you do with every cent?

Itai Erdal 16:34

You just gave us the money and we could move it around. And we can choose to spend it on a musician, and we can choose to spend it on more rehearsal time. We can choose to spend it on anything we wanted to spend it.

Itai Erdal 16:45

And it shows, the show is tight because we had enough time and enough money to do it properly. And so I can't thank you enough for commissioning it and for believing in it.

Gabrielle Martin 16:57

So tell us about what is soldiers of tomorrow for those who are listening, watching who don't know what it is.

Itai Erdal 17:03

Soldiers of Tomorrow is maybe the story that I've been wanting to tell my whole life because I feel so so strongly about it and it's about my military service, I'm from Israel and You know military service is compulsory in Israel And I was sort of a leftist before I went to the army I always knew that the Palestinians deserve to have a state and when I went to the army I was determined to be the good soldier and my mother said to me You know if we leave the military to all the right -wing fanatics then then If all the people like you don't go then we'll be leaving the army to all the crazy people and we should balance things out And so I went to the army trying to do good And I did sort of my best effort to do good,

Itai Erdal 17:46

but while I was in the army, I realized that You cannot Wear a uniform and and not be an oppressor that the Palestinians who saw me all they saw was you know A guy in uniform. They don't care if I'm a nice guy or if I root for them or if I don't root for them I was still there oppressing them and so During my military service.

Itai Erdal 18:05

I had a real sort of realization that I felt like I was lied to and cheated to by by my country by my Education system by the media and you know all the a lot of the massacres that happened in 1948 and in 1967 I'm not mentioned in any of the history books in Israel and so when I left Israel I was determined to tell the world what is happening in Palestine.

Itai Erdal 18:28

I felt a really strong moral obligation Of course now the shit has hit the fan and things are sort of the worst nightmare scenario that we have right now with this horrible genocide that is happening in Gaza, but Before that when I started writing the play and there was a feeling that a lot of people And just don't understand what's happening there And and just we're afraid to take sides and I wanted to make a play that helps people take sides and to say look I am a proud Jew Everyone that I love lives in Israel if I can criticize Israel and so can you and it felt I felt a real strong moral Obligation that I feel today even stronger and to be that voice because I know what I'm talking about And I've been to Gaza as a soldier and I can tell you how horribly wrong it is And so it's really a play that that covers the entire history of the conflict.

Itai Erdal 19:24

There's a lot of information I think Anita and Colleen Murphy who wrote the creator to play with We're really smart in finding a way to to transfer a lot of information without it ever being didactic without being a lecture It's a very entertaining piece of theater It's a very compelling piece of theater, but it really does explain the entire conflict from beginning to end And it's an attempt of me to take responsibility for my action and As a soldier and to try to make a better future for Palestinians anyway

Gabrielle Martin 20:00

And the work went on to a long run at Summerhall at Edinburgh.

Itai Erdal 20:05

We won an award in Edinburgh and we got a lot of five -star reviews and the last term award. The last term award is the award that they give for innovation. But also more than the awards and the five -star reviews, it was the reaction of the people.

Itai Erdal 20:23

I've had many, many Palestinians and Jews, but a lot of Palestinians come to me after the show and saying, we've never heard an Israeli, we've never heard a Jewish person speak like this. We, in fact, never heard anybody speak like this or iterate those thoughts in a play.

Itai Erdal 20:41

And so many people came to tell me how important they feel their work is. And so being able to go to Edinburgh, it just opened me up to thousands of people who saw the show who would have never seen it in any other way.

Itai Erdal 20:59

And now there's a lot of interest for next season and we're hoping to do a Canadian tour. There's companies who want it in Calgary, in Toronto and in Montreux, sorry, in Ottawa. And I really hope that the show is going to have a long life.

Itai Erdal 21:17

And again, we were able to do that also because of your commissioning money also allowed us to take really good documentation of the show. When we did it at Bush, we filmed it, I wore a lavalier and we had three cameras and we got a really good quality recording of the show that now can help sell the show.

Gabrielle Martin 21:37

it's such a relevant and masterful piece so I really hope that it has a long touring life. Can you talk to us about you know those early days when you were lighting designing for the empty orchestra for crime and punishment up until now your work on Soldiers of Tomorrow and then and you have new works in creation as well.

Gabrielle Martin 21:57

How has your artistic practice developed, grown over this period?

Itai Erdal 22:02

Well, even as a lighting designer, I always felt that I was a storyteller, that I was part of the storytelling, and I think that's what made me a good lighting designer, is that I wasn't just confined to my own thing, but I saw how it affects the entire storyteller.

Itai Erdal 22:18

So people think it's a huge stretch from being a designer to being a performer, but in my mind I was always telling stories. But having the opportunity of having this thing happen to me with my mother and having all the video that I have, and having friends like James Long and Anitha Roshan, who wanted to create a show with me, made me realize that there are no blueprints for a career in theatre or in the arts,

Itai Erdal 22:44

that you can try different things, and if you go to this, then you can do this, and if you go to this, you can do that, and so the success of that show, How to Disappear, opened me up to the possibility of being a performer and a writer, and I realized that those are the most rewarding things that I can do.

Itai Erdal 23:01

How to Disappear completely, we did in 26 different cities. I've had thousands of people come to me to tell me about losing parents, about finding love, which is another theme in the show. Many people told me that they learned more about lighting in an hour of watching that show than in 20 years of directing theatre.

Itai Erdal 23:21

And so being able to connect with people is the most wonderful gift that performing and writing has given me, and I would say that's what's changed. I've realized that I can do a lot of different things.

Itai Erdal 23:38

I've started my own theatre company, so I'm not dependent on other people to hire me, and I can produce my own work, and I can do work about things that I think are important. I also believe in the peer system that we have in this country for various public funding, that if you can articulate your ideas into sentences, and if you're articulate, I suppose, then you can raise money from the government to create art.

Itai Erdal 24:04

And so I'm very thankful for that, and I don't take it for granted, and I think that's the main way that I've... I still love designing lights, I've got to say, I don't imagine ever stopping designing lights.

Itai Erdal 24:15

I can't imagine retiring. I think I'll design lights when I'm 80. And I love designing lights, but I also love being creative in a lot of different ways. I like taking photos, and I like writing, and I like performing, and it's such a wonderful thing to have a balance of being able to do all these things together.

Gabrielle Martin 24:35

Do you have any final words on how you perceive, uh, what you perceive to be the cultural context of push and pushes significance to Vancouver, to your practice? I mean, you've spoken about that to your career quite a bit.

Gabrielle Martin 24:47

Um, and you've also spoken about, you know, how meaningful it was to have these artists, breakfasts or late night gatherings, bringing together international and local artists. Um, yeah. Any last words on?

Itai Erdal 25:01

I think, yeah, I spoke about the significance for myself, but for the city, I think when you travel around the world as much as I do and you go to festivals, when you mention the Push Festival around the world, people's eyes open up.

Itai Erdal 25:14

They're like, oh, I'd like to go there. It is considered, Vancouver has this allure as a very beautiful place, and the Push Festival has this reputation of a festival that brings great works of art. And I think, like I said, the names of the companies that I mentioned earlier that I've seen are some of the best people in the world.

Itai Erdal 25:36

I've met Castelucci, and I've met, you know, Consco Quartet, and I've met, like really, some of the most amazing artists, not just in North America, but in Europe and around the world. And I cannot overemphasize how important that is to our theatre community and to our art scene to be exposed to the world and to have the world exposed to us.

Itai Erdal 26:02

And that's a symbiotic relationship that goes both ways and enriches ourselves as artists and enriches the city. And so, yeah, I think Push is absolutely crucial in raising the bar of the work that we see here because if somebody goes to see a great piece of art at Push, they don't care that it's from some of the best companies.

Itai Erdal 26:25

That's what they want to see. And so it pushes us all to do better work, and it inspires us all to try to create works like some of the best theatres happening around the world.

Ben Charland 26:39

That was a special episode of Push Play in honor of our 20th Push International Performing Arts Festival, which will run from January 23rd to February 9th, 2025. Push Play is produced by myself, Ben Charland, and Tricia Knowles.

Ben Charland 26:56

A new episode of our 20th Festival series with Gabriel Martin will be released every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on Push 20 and the 2025 Festival, visit pushfestival .ca and follow us on social media at Push Festival.

Ben Charland 27:15

And if you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word and take a moment to leave a review.