Mastering Sales and Fulfillment

Love Your Sales

In this episode of Love Your Sales, Leighann Lovely chats with Dave Gulas, President and co-founder of EZD C3 PL, about navigating the balance between making genuine connections and avoiding common pitfalls in sales. Dave shares valuable insights on the importance of authentic communication, the efficacy of proper discovery, and how being visible and building trust online can significantly impact your success. The conversation also touches on Dave's journey from pharmaceutical distribution to leading a thriving logistics company and how his podcast, "Beyond Fulfillment," facilitates learning and growth for fellow entrepreneurs. Tune in for practical advice and inspiring stories to elevate your sales game!

Contact Dave –

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/davegulas/

Website – davegulas.com

Book link - https://hicksalicia.gumroad.com/l/DaveGulasEZDC3PL?_gl=1*76pocx*_ga*MTQ0MjAyNTk2NC4xNzIwMzYzMzE4*_ga_6LJN6D94N6*MTcyMTY2NTAwMy43LjEuMTcyMTY2NTcwMS4wLjAuMA..

Code - WEALTH

Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com and Sales Rescue – www.rescuemysales.com

Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/

The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489

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Channel Subscribe link - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-O7W9DzaRv4waodQKCprIg?sub_confirmation=1

Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am so excited that I am joined by Dave Gulas. He is the President and Co-founder of EZD C3 PL and the host of Beyond Fulfillment Podcast. I am so thrilled to have you join me today. Dave, welcome to the show. Hey, it's great to be here, Leighann. Thank you. Yeah, so why don't we jump right in, tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and then we can, you [00:02:00] know.

Talk about sales. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm president and Co-founder of EZDC 3PL. Uh, we've been around just about two years now and we help, e commerce brands with warehousing, fulfillment, and transportation. So, you know, think for people to sell online or have a Shopify store and they want to outsource, , their logistics, their fulfillment, so they'll rent space in our warehouse and we provide that.

Dave Gulas: Pick, pack and ship their orders. We connect to their store. We handle all aspects of their, uh, their fulfillment.

Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. And it's, it's so funny that you, you know, when you explain that so precisely and simply, I have a couple of people I can probably introduce you to, which, you know, it's when somebody brings, you know, Really simplistically, and I think that as founders as salespeople, sometimes we get stuck in our own heads, but, it's a very simple like this is what you do.

And, um, it reminds [00:03:00] me of, of the people who are like, Oh, I have this problem. Right. And it's like, Oh yeah, I, I know a couple of people who are having that exact problem right now. So tell me a little bit about, you know, some of your, you know, ideal clients, exactly, you know, the size of those clients and, and what are the problems they have when they come to you?

Dave Gulas: So generally when so think of a company starting to sell online, oftentimes these companies, if, you know, particularly if they're bootstrapped, they'll begin fulfilling out of either a small warehouse, or even maybe out of their, their home per se, and they'll grow the business that way. But every company reaches a point where, okay, in order to continue to scale, they need to outsource the logistics because as they begin to grow and scale, they have thousands of orders going out in a month.

And, you know, they're dealing with the complexity of, you know, managing a warehouse and managing staff and negotiating their parcel rates. And. [00:04:00] You know, software, um, becomes an issue and all these different things that are, are crucial to, the logistics of a company that's growing, they all reach a point where it makes sense to outsource that to a company that specializes on the logistics where they can then focus on, uh, the other, the other things that they do well to continue to grow their business, whether it's product development, sales, marketing, or, or other aspects of their business.

Um, you know, according to a national survey, and the number one reason is lack of communication. And that's Big reason why we started the company a couple of years ago, because we came across numerous exam, numerous examples of people that were with the 3PL. They were selling online and because maybe they weren't, uh, at a particular package volume or a particular order threshold, they just were, they were not given priority and they were, they just weren't getting good service.

So it would, you know, orders wouldn't go out. It would be days with no response. Customers were upset and they were, they were just really getting second class service. [00:05:00] And our. Our team's background is in generic pharmaceutical distribution, and we have about 20 years experience doing that, and so that, that in itself is a very, uh, high, high touch, high customer service type of environment where everything's urgent, everything's going overnight, things go wrong all the time, you're dealing with small business owners as your customers, so you have to constantly be in touch and make sure that That, they're taking care of.

So we thought our brand of customer service would do well within the 3PL space. And that, that's why we, uh, we got into it.

Leighann Lovely: So it's, funny that you say, you know, number one reason that customers are not happy is communication. And I think that's the number one reason in any industry, um, you know, a salesperson goes.

goes out, makes that sale. They're making the promises as a salesperson does is that our team can do this. Our team are, you know, fulfillment team, whether that be in an, in a warehousing team, whether that be in your space, the, you know, the commerce [00:06:00] side, the e commerce side of, well, that's not your space, but you know what I mean?

Um, what, whatever space that might be in is the salesperson goes out. Sells that makes those promises and then crickets because there's that handoff between. This person selling and the person who's going to deliver on the promise that the salesperson made. Right.

Dave Gulas: Yeah. Yeah, of course. That's a, um, that's a critical piece of the puzzle, , to where, you know, like you said, right, the salesperson that they're, selling the, you know, the vision of.

You know, these problems solved and they're counting on their team to execute. And if that doesn't happen, that that's a big problem.

Leighann Lovely: Right. And I think that a lot of companies, um, I don't want to say fall short, but there is a disconnect sometimes when it comes to what is the salesperson out there representing?

Do they know their company? Do they understand the logistics of [00:07:00] how their company works so that they can sell the product properly, not over promise. I hate when people say, you know, under promise, over deliver. How about just promise what you're going to deliver?

Dave Gulas: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because the, the, the worst thing you can do is over promise and under deliver.

And we see that Time and time and time again. Uh, and that, that doesn't help anybody.

Leighann Lovely: Absolutely. So, you know, help me, um, understand, you know, let's kind of, let's go back a little bit, help me better understand like your journey, where did you come from? When and why, and I say this in a very kind and loving way, being a, you know, a co founder myself.

Why did you decide that? Yep. I'm going to start a business. I'm going to take the leap. I'm going to, you know, this is the journey. Um, and how did you go about [00:08:00] starting this business?

Dave Gulas: Yeah. So I had, , so I've been in sales my whole career and, the bulk of it was, uh, with a pharmaceutical distributor where I started an entry level sales and worked my way up to executive level and was there for a long time.

And they ultimately went under. And that was a couple of years back. And when that happened, uh, a good friend of mine from the industry that owned like a friendly competitor, , we just connected and we had this idea where, you know, he had excess space available in Kentucky and we saw an opportunity with this other vertical within 3PL logistics and everything lined up and we just decided to do it.

And so, yeah, that's, that's how it started. And, uh, yeah, it's been, it's been a journey, you know, ever since too, just in terms of , you know, the, the industry I came from was very niche and it was very traditional sales with, um, you know, calling a lot of phone sales and calling and commodity based type, distribution sales versus on the founder [00:09:00] journey.

I quickly realized within logistics that you. Um, you have to be visible online to where people can find you because so often in our industry, you don't know where the business is going to come from and timing is everything. So, , as soon as I got out there and I, I realized kind of how, how business was done within logistics, uh, you know, I quickly had to start building a personal brand and selling in a completely different way.

Leighann Lovely: So explain that to me. Um, You know, because often, you know, and I've, I've dabbled in industries far and wide, um, everything from selling advertising space and print media to, you know, selling and, you know, in, in industries where timing was. I mean, you live and die on timing, you know, renewals on insurance and that kind of thing to the, you know, to industries where it's a, you know, you just call in and it doesn't matter [00:10:00] the timing.

It's more of, you know, just the need at that moment kind of thing. So explain to me a little bit more about, you know, timing and what that meant to, you know, what it means to get. you know, out there and social and make yourself visible and how you started to learn that and how to position yourself.

Dave Gulas: Yes.

So, , yeah, within logistics, right. When you think about our customers, uh, they're coming to us and they're, they're moving into our warehouse, right. And they're sending us their goods and we sign an agreement. And, you know, the standard agreement is 12 months and an auto renews and, you know, whatnot. So it's not like a short term thing.

So it's a big commitment. So it's not a decision they take likely, lightly. And it's not something definitely, ideally, it's not something that an e commerce company is going to want to do very often in terms of move warehouses. So it's a big decision and it doesn't happen [00:11:00] overnight. uh, you know, versus the, the, the industry I came from was very transactional.

I mean, these, these pharmacies, they're buying medicine every single day from a variety of people, right? So it was a very transactional commodity based sale where this is much more of a lot of more work is done before you sign an agreement. And then the relationship begins and, you know, you want to do the best possible job.

So they stay with you long term. So that's, that's the business. You know, like and trust, um, is, is so critical to establish and oftentimes too, they might not even know who you are and it's, it's not the type of thing where you're going to be cold calling all the time for, for people that need to find a new warehouse.

They oftentimes are going to come to you. So, you know, I wasn't, when I, we started this, I was, Basically invisible online. So I had to get out there on LinkedIn and start posting a lot, start learning about content and providing value, uh, through the content and, you know, then of course, doing the self promotion type of thing.

[00:12:00] And yeah, I, I just, I, I got with a boutique firm that was, you know, had a lot of experience in doing that and just started collaborating with them and learned as I went and. Yeah, I wasn't afraid to take action, start doing it and, uh, you know, get better as I went.

Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. And so when people come to you, I'm, I'm going to, well, one, I'm going to make the assumption that you're beyond fulfillment podcast is something that, gets you out there that really, you know, helps from a social media standpoint really is helping you kind of increase your visibility.

Dave Gulas: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So the podcast came about as a result of, you know, on the founder journey, right. Learned so much. It wasn't what I thought it was. Uh, Made a ton of mistakes, had to course correct constantly. And the, the main theme that I continue to notice is that the biggest source of learning I [00:13:00] would get is from other founders that I would speak to on this journey and kind of learning the challenges they went through, how they handled or solve these problems and whatnot.

And then one day the idea just hit me is like, wow, if you started a podcast, you could put these conversations on a public forum. The audience could benefit, the guests would benefit. It would, it would give you exposure as well. So it would really be a win win. And, you know, kind of same thing. It seemed like a good idea.

I checked with my team. We came up a way with a way to start it quickly and, and, uh, you know, from where we were. And so I said, okay, great. Let's do it.

So yeah, that's how the podcast started. And, um, yeah, everything lined up. So we just started doing it and same thing. I just, found a way to be consistent with that. And yeah, we've published now been doing it just about a year.

We've published like 72 episodes or so, and. , yeah,

Leighann Lovely: it is same with, with me for obviously this podcast, one of the greatest ways to create a community to learn from [00:14:00] to, um, not only learn from, but to also help others learn from and to, you know, what a great way to get a captive audience, right, Dave? I mean, now I'm, I've got a captive audience here where I can pick your brain, educate myself.

At the same time, try to educate others and get the word out. And that's the same reason that I started my first, my very first podcast ever was to, you know, when you get the same question over and over from, for instance, clients, that was the reason I started my first podcast. Now I've moved on from that one.

And, but, and I've heard a lot of people say that, well, It's a great way to learn. It's a great way to figure out how to avoid mistakes if at all possible as a founder or co founder. But that's, that's awesome. It's also a great way to, you know, start to brand yourself, um, not only as a business, [00:15:00] but also as a business.

as an individual who has something to offer to the world?

Dave Gulas: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And, um, as soon as we started the podcast, that was a big inflection point for our business where we noticed a big uptick in conversion. And then also just, it was a great source of lead generation. And, uh, you know, I always attribute it to, you know, like the like, and trust to where if you think about a brand, right.

Oftentimes for these, these e commerce brands, they're Their inventory is their livelihood. So they really have to trust you before they're going to ship that all to you for you to take care of. And so many companies in our space operate as faceless, nameless brands. So just even the fact that getting out there continually on video and posting every week, uh, you know, new episodes and interviewing all these experts from not only our industry, but all different types of entrepreneurs.

Uh, it's, it's just it's helped immensely with, our marketing and, and with the business.

Leighann Lovely: [00:16:00] Right. That's, that's amazing. So let's, let's talk about the things as a salesperson as, you know, as a, um, a new business as a, even for a, an entrepreneur, a, a brand new salesperson. Let's, let's, let's hone in on, What not to do the wrong way to do it.

The, you know, why people buy and you mentioned, you know, the no, no, like, and trust, right? The, the, like, and trust the, let's, let's talk about, you know, some of your experience in that. And, you know, and I, I mean, I could go on all day long about. Don't, don't message me on LinkedIn about how, you know, you love my profile.

You'd love to, you know, you'd love to connect. And then as soon as we do connect a three long page message about how you want to sell me your product.

Dave Gulas: Yeah. I got like two of those this morning. I mean, I get them like all the time. Right. Constantly. Right. Um, yeah. And it's [00:17:00] funny too. I'll just mention this.

This is a special gift to your listeners. So after my first year as a founder, , and publicly grow in the business and posting and promoting everywhere, right. I was just inundated with sales attempts. So I just was in a creative mode last year and, uh, I wrote an ebook, which is called the five beds, the five bed.

Sales habits that are killing your deals and how to fix them. And, I'll see, you can post the link and then if it's on gum road, and if you put the coupon code wealth in there, you can get the book for free. But what it is, it was, I just took five examples of like the worst sales pitches I had received as a founder.

why they were so bad and then what you should do instead. Um, so it's, it's just, you know, some, you know, no names or anything in there, but just some, some stories that I'm sure others that can relate to. But just to give you a couple, like one. That I see constantly is like salespeople being so aggressive and pushy and it's like they're trying to make the [00:18:00] sale just to make the sale with really being oblivious to, is this even the right fit or does this even benefit the person I'm selling to?

Leighann Lovely: You know, absolutely. Have you ever had anybody try to sell you your own product, like something that you actually yourself sell? Because I get that all the time. People are like, Oh, I see that you blah, blah, blah. We say, you know, we do blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, if you look at my website. I actually do that as well.

I mean, and, and again, you know, more power to you for getting yourself out there. Don't try to immediately say, Hey, this is, it'll cost you this much to buy this from me. When you have no idea who you are reaching out to. Like, why are you trying to sell me something if you don't have any clue as to [00:19:00] who I am?

Like, and I can understand, like, if it's a marketing campaign from, like, a CRM company, great, that's how they brand themselves. But if you are an individual salesperson just sending out a mass campaign of, hey, come and talk to me, I'm never going to talk to you. Never. Like, you're going to go on my spam list.

Because you, you have no clue as to who I am and what I do. And I probably in my own network, no, like eight people who do that same thing.

Dave Gulas: Yeah. And like, I'm fine with. Everyone prospects and cold calls and does all that thing, but it's just really the approach, like I always look at it more and again, our businesses may be different than other industries, but still like ours is all about discovery.

So before we even get to a presentation or even like a, like this would be a good fit, we want to. learn [00:20:00] about the prospect and what their challenges are and what their business is and how we would potentially benefit them before, even recommending a solution. Right. And yeah, that's, and, my friend, Darren Jacklin, he has a saying, uh, he's a speaker and whatnot, but he says, and he compares it to the medical industry too, but he says prescription without diagnosis, Is malpractice literally in the medical industry, it's malpractice.

But yet you see that everywhere in sales where people are trying to prescribe their product without even a proper diagnosis of, is this even the right fit? So that, that's what I would say is the biggest issue I see is people need to take more time and. more of a discovery, uh, approach with prospecting before trying to hammer close something that doesn't even, make sense.

Leighann Lovely: Right. If you only have extra large pants, you're not going to be able to sell those to a size zero person. It would it make sense?

Dave Gulas: [00:21:00] That's a great example

Leighann Lovely: here. Here. I have a pair of pants. They're perfect for you. Buy them, buy them, buy them what it doesn't fit everybody. It just doesn't. And same with the reverse.

If you have an extra small and you have a person who is a large, why would you say. Buy these, it's, I mean, it, it, if you, if the person doesn't fit your product, you are better off to refer them to somebody else and hope that that person remembers that you did right by them one day and have them refer back to you.

And if you truly make a connection with that person and you should be as a salesperson truly sitting down, going through that discovery, making, and you shouldn't not in all cases. I, let me, let me. Retract that comment. Not everybody likes everybody. Not everybody makes a connection with everybody, but for the majority of the people that you sit [00:22:00] down with and do a discovery, you, there should be some form of like mutual, like understanding.

And at the end of that, if you don't have a product that matches their need, I I'm the kind of person who's like, you know what, I actually know somebody that you would probably benefit better working with. And people appreciate that. I will remember that person for referring me to somebody else who can help me.

more than them trying to shove their solution down my throat and walking away with a bad taste in my mouth.

Dave Gulas: Yeah. And too, right. To, to your point, like the, the person on the other end, if it's not the right fit, they know that, or if, if it's going to become apparent very quickly. So nothing good is going to come from, you know, trying to place a square peg in a round hole per se.

Leighann Lovely: Right. Both parties [00:23:00] will end up. Not feeling happy.

Dave Gulas: Yeah,

Leighann Lovely: it may not be in a week. It may not be in a month. It may be in 6 months or a year. And if it's that far down the road, that bad taste is going to be even worse because now there's going to be. Money involved, there's going to be, you know, it's going to be a lot worse and potentially damaging reviews.

So it's, you're so much better off than cutting that person loose and moving on, then again, trying to make a, you know, a pitch to somebody that just doesn't make sense.

Dave Gulas: Yeah, a hundred percent. 100%.

Leighann Lovely: So tell me a little bit more about this book. I'd love it. Do you remember another example?

Dave Gulas: Yeah. Well, so speaking of making connections and networking, [00:24:00] another one that I go into too, and it's, um, like a similar point is I've had, you know, cause part of being a founder and as you know, you're networking constantly and you're meeting people over zoom and, or if it's in person or whatever.

So constantly having conversations, What do you do? This is what I do. What do you do? Okay, maybe it makes sense to do something together. Maybe we could work together in this way. Maybe I know someone, right? That's, that's how I always try to approach it is me, you know, or just, just learning or making a connection.

And it's fun. Like I've had this happen several times and usually with consultants for whatever reason, is we get on a call and they're trying to. You know, turn it into a, like a sales call, like on the net, like we just, we just met, we just connected and you're, you know, and, you're already asking those big picture vision questions and, you know, where do you see yourself in five years?

Leighann Lovely: So [00:25:00] my, a friend of mine calls that, pitch slapping, um, which I love, but it, you know, it's, it's like a bad date and I'm literally quoting him. Um, then saying he's been on my podcast, but it's like a bad date where you sit down or you're on a zoom call and all of the sudden you're like, oh man, I really wish somebody would call me with an emergency right now.

Cause I don't want to have to sit here. And listen to this person basically pitch me and they're like, and try to sell me like I'm not doing a one on one so that I can like be sold.

Dave Gulas: Yeah.

Leighann Lovely: And, there have been multiple times where. I've tried to help people, like I'll literally get into that meeting and I'll go, wait, okay, wait, like, are you new to networking?

Like, like, is this, is this new for you? And they'll go, Oh yeah, yeah. I just started [00:26:00] doing this. And I'm like, how do I nicely tell them like, This is not how you do it without insulting them, right? But I, I want to always be a helper. I also don't want to insult somebody, hurt their feelings and be like, yeah, you're doing this wrong.

Because you never know the kind of person that, you know, are they a person who will accept, you know, feedback? Are they not? And again, some people are very open to it. Like, yeah, tell me what I'm doing wrong. Like, because I'm not, it doesn't seem to be working. But yeah, that is, that is definitely, that's an annoying one.

Dave Gulas: Yeah. Another one too, is the, the like, like rapport building, right? Like if you think about even traditional, uh, cause people try that too. Someone just did that the other day where like, I don't know who they are and never talked to them. They just happen to call me and I don't get many cold calls [00:27:00] anymore.

Uh, you know, cause the way our industry is set up to it's, you know, it's typically scheduled calls, but someone cold called me out of the blue and He said, Oh, hi Dave. How are you? And you know, it's just just add like they were trying to make friendly small talk and I was like, who they didn't even introduce themselves.

Right. And I'm like, yeah, who is this? And what do you want?

Leighann Lovely: It can get creepy. Like, I've had people actually, like, call me and start dropping personal stuff about me. And I'm like, I don't know who you, and that's because of how social I am because of how much, you know, you're out there, Dave, you, you have a podcast, you're out there talking about yourself, maybe dropping in personal tidbits about yourself.

And then all of a sudden you don't realize somebody calls you and they're like, Oh, you know, how is your daughter or how? And I'm like. Wait, do I, do we know this person? Like they literally stalk you to learn [00:28:00] personal information about you that crosses a line and you're like, oh my gosh, how does this person know this?

And you have to remember like, oh, because I post on LinkedIn, I post on Facebook, I have a podcast where sometimes I talk about myself and you have to actually take a step back and go, wow, this person like creepy sales. Stalking sales, like, and then you just get this icky feeling like, yeah, I'm not interested.

Like go stalk somebody else.

Dave Gulas: Yeah. And I've seen that as a strategy taught by some people, uh, where, you know what I mean? You look at the personal stuff, but there's a way to do it. And there's a, like, I always just like. Describe it as just being authentic, like the same way you would communicate with a friend.

That's how your sales call should be in terms of tone and speed and conversation. And I always like to just lead with value. And I'm more of a [00:29:00] driver type personality, right? Where I'm to the point, but at the same time, right? You want it to be friendly, conversational, but meaningful. And if you just be your authentic self, instead of trying to be fake with the small talk, like Rick rapport is not fake small talk.

I look at rapport is meeting people where they're at and how do they like to communicate? What, what are the challenges they facing? What value can you offer? Where does it really make sense if you're thinking about what's best for them? And if it doesn't, then recognize that and move on.

Leighann Lovely: Right. That that's great advice.

And meeting people where they're at. And, and that's very, you know, I am, I have always loved cold calling. It's part of the reason that I started the business that I, you know, that I have today is, you know, cold calling is just something that, you know, you're, I look at it as, I'm just simply making a quick phone call to see if somebody is interested in my product.

Hey, I'm Leighann. I'm calling, you know, I I'm Leighann. Hi, Dave. How you doing today? Look, I just wanted to give [00:30:00] you a quick call, whatever it might be. Is there some interest here? Can I provide you with some, you know, value, blah, blah, blah. But, and I don't have the time to go and stalk you before I make that phone call.

But what I do make sure that I do is that every time. You and I have a conversation have an interaction is that I make a notation of what that conversation was about. And I build the rapport authentically based on interaction between us. I don't go and stock whether or not you have a dog or a daughter or, you know, A boat that you go out on and all that kind of stuff, because then it becomes kind of strange and creepy.

Some people, some states are really huge into their college that they went to that, you know, if you have something in common that you notice. That's okay, but getting into like the weird stuff kind of [00:31:00] gets,

but go ahead.

Dave Gulas: No, no, that you're good.

Leighann Lovely: So we are coming to time and I give everybody at the end of, you know, at the end of the show, their 32nd shameless pitch. I'd like to offer that to you.

Dave Gulas: Okay, sure, sure. Yeah, so EZDC3PL, we help manufacturers and e commerce brands with warehousing, fulfillment, and transportation.

So, if you are selling online and you're doing fulfillment yourself and it's a headache, you might want to talk to us and find out what we offer to see if it could be a fit. Or if you're with a 3PL currently and you're not happy, which we talk to people like that all the time. Again, we're, we're headquartered in Kentucky, so right in the, the center of the country, basically.

So, yeah, if you, if you have, , if you have a need in that area, By all means, come talk to us. And if you're looking to hear inspiring stories from entrepreneurs with challenges they faced and pivots they had to make and how they overcame the hurdles within their business, so you can take those same ideas and apply it to what you're doing, [00:32:00] check out the beyond fulfillment podcast.

We publish everywhere that you can find a podcast and, uh, on YouTube as well.

Leighann Lovely: Awesome. And if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how could they go about doing that? What is the best way?

Dave Gulas: LinkedIn. I'm always on LinkedIn, so that's a great way. Or you can go to dave gulas.com and that has the links to everything that I do.

Leighann Lovely: Awesome. And those will be included in the show notes, along with a link to your ebook and the code that you provided to us. I really appreciate you coming on today, Dave. This has been an awesome conversation.

Dave Gulas: Yeah, excellent. Thanks so much, Leighann.