S4 E6. One last bite…

Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast

The time has come: it’s the final episode of Casting Lots. For real this time.

Join Alix and Carmella for all your remaining cannibalism questions answered, plus a bonus Arctic adventure involving an Italian airship and a very good dog.

Did you know Casting Lots now has merch? Find us on Redbubble: https://www.redbubble.com/people/CastingLotsPod/shop

CREDITS

Written, hosted and produced by Alix Penn and Carmella Lowkis.

Theme music by Daniel Wackett. Find him on Twitter @ds_wack and Soundcloud as Daniel Wackett.

Logo by Ashley. Find her on Twitter and Instagram @tallestfriend. Casting Lots is part of the Morbid Audio Podcast Network. Network sting by Mikaela Moody. Find her on Bandcamp as mikaelamoody1.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

• Filimonov, A. and R. Coalson. (2018). Cannibal Island: in 1933, nearly 5,000 died in one of Stalin’s most horrific labour camps. Available at: https://www.rferl.org/a/cannibal-island-in-1933-nearly-5-000-died-in-one-of-stalin-s-most-horrific-labor-camps/29341167.html

• Hug, C. (2012). ‘Nobile’s drama and Amundesen’s end’. Polar Journal, 24 April. Available at: https://polarjournal.ch/en/2021/04/24/nobiles-drama-and-amundsens-end/
• Museum of the World Ocean. (n.d.). Umberto Nobile’s Expedition 1928. Available at: https://www.krassin.ru/en/o-ledokole-en/podvig-vo-ldakh-en.html
• Piesing, M. (2021). N-4 Down. Boston, NY: Mariner Books.
• ‘Ring Around Nobile’. (1928). Time, 6 August. Available at: https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,787439-1,00.html
• ‘Was Zappi a cannibal?’. (1929). Worker, 17 April, p. 2. Available at: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71159996

TRANSCRIPT

Alix: Have you ever been really, really hungry?

Carmella: You’re listening to Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast.

A: I’m Alix.

C: I’m Carmella.

A: And now let’s tuck into the gruesome history of this ultimate taboo…

[Intro Music – Daniel Wackett]

C: Welcome to the final episode of this mini-season of Casting Lots. Alix and I asked you to send in any lingering questions about cannibalism, and here we are to answer them!

[Intro music continues]

C: Hello and welcome to the final ever episode!

A: Well, final bearing any major news stories that may or may not break in the future.

C: Yeah, you can still add to this list. [Laughs] But until then, this is the final ever episode of Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast. We mean it this time.

A: Fingers crossed. No, we do. We are genuinely out of content that we can find in English. We have scoured every bookshop.

C: We spend so much time in Waterstones looking through the indexes of various books that it’s becoming a bit creepy. And I think booksellers are going to start kicking us out.

A: I’ve actually run out of searches on eBay for ‘cannibalism book’, and they’re just trying to get me to buy cookbooks that I feel very uncomfortable about.

[Carmella laughs]

A: We have decided that all good things come to an end. And Season Four is, as we’ve said, barring the space cannibalism that might come in our lifetime– barring that, we’ve reached the end. The barrel is empty.

C: You know what happens then? [Pause] Like, ‘cause the barrel– You’re out of food in the barrel.

[Alix groans at the bad joke]

C: So it’s time to eat each other.

A: Yes, that’s actually how we’re ending the season. The entire series.It is just–

C: A live recording of Alex and Carmella eating one another.

[Both giggle]

C: [Not sure about that one] Hmm.

A: The thing is, for posterity, I feel like we have to leave that in. But also we’re going to be on so many–

[Carmella laughs]

A: I’m not sure if it’s worse, the fact we’re gonna be on like police records or like vore Reddit. Neither are good. Was this what you expected when on… It wasn’t quite Christmas Eve…

C: It was my birthday.

A: Was it your birthday?

C: It was my birthday party.

A: No, it wasn’t your– No, it was before then. It was before then, because I had been on a really dodgy Christmas lights tour of London with my best friend, had drunk both mine and her cocktails at the one that’s near her Majesty’s Theatre, Planet Hollywood. And then slightly tipsily, texted you – who at the time, we only sort of vaguely knew each other – and was like ‘so do want to do a cannibalism podcast?’

C: So yeah, that was when the text was.

A: Yeah.

C: But the verbal face-to-face discussion was at my birthday party.

A: Yes. We are both correct. So is this what you expected?

C: I have to say I didn’t think that we would get as far as recording an episode.

[Alix laughs]

C: But we followed through, and what a journey it’s been.

A: Over the ice, dragging our sledges full of recording materials. One day, we’re going to earn back in merchandise the value of our microphone. If anyone was worried that this is like a money making scheme, rest assured that it is very much not.

C: However, the true value has been the friendships that we’ve made over the course of this podcast. And as you’ve all heard, in this most recent season, we have actually met people through survival cannibalism on the internet!

A: Now that sounds dodgy. But no, we have. We’ve made lots of friends. And in that very slightly parasocial way, there are some of you out there, who when you reach out to us, we are like, ‘Oh, those are our friends, they’ve messaged us again.’ So if you, you know, ever worry that content creators, you know, are high up above it and, you know, think highly of themselves, we do like screenshot positive feedback and send it back and forth to each other on WhatsApp, because we’re really sad, and you make us really happy.

C: Thank you so much to everyone who has ever listened to our voices telling you about cannibalism.

A: It is always a very awkward one when you’re having that, ‘Oh, so what do you do for fun?’ It’s always like ‘Well, I do embroidery and I go wild swimming. And I have a cannibalism podcast on the internet that’s got four seasons now.’ And they sort of turn round at you and they’re like, ‘Sorry, did I miss something?’ I’m like, ‘No, no, that’s exactly– That’s exactly what I said. Now, either you think this is fascinating, and we’re going to have a great conversation, or we are never going to talk about it again. And it’s entirely how you respond right now.’

C: [Laughs] It’s a talking point that I somehow inevitably bring about in every dinner party, gathering, workplace session.

A: I mean, we’ve definitely been introduced as ‘This is Alix and Carmella, they have a cannibalism podcast.’

C: 100%.

A: Like, it’s one of the easiest things to just be like, boom, you want an anecdote? Here, anecdote. And then we get all the inevitable questions. ‘Have you watched the film Alive?’ No, I haven’t.

C: ‘So do you do the cannibalism?’ No, we don’t.

A: ‘What’s wrong with you?’ Wish I knew. You know, more of the usual. Also, I don’t know if you can tell, but I’m very much out of my comfort zone, because none of this episode is scripted. So Alix is really just babbling at this point. And I don’t understand how people do this in ordinary life. I don’t have my tablet. I don’t have all of my jokes pre-prepared. I don’t know what to do, Carmella!

C: Well, on the subject of people asking us questions…

A: Oh, thank God, do we have some structure?

C: We have some structure. We asked our beloved followers and listeners to send in their outstanding cannibalism questions, the things that we somehow didn’t cover in four seasons.

A: And also to beautifully mirror our terrible episode zero. (Please don’t listen to it. We just needed Apple to acknowledge us as a podcast.) So we just wanted to wrap it up quite nicely. We started with a Q&A. Let’s end on a Q&A. So Anonymous, probably not the organisation but you know, gets all sorts, asked us on Tumblr. Do we actually know if a person would get more nutrition or energy from eating raw human flesh or cooked? Their money says cooked because the easier it is to digest, the less calories needed for digestion, equals more energy overall. And just because we really like positive feedback, still loving the show, re-listening to episodes as usual. And lots of hearts. Genuinely actually means so much that people like our podcast! Like it’s madness. The first time we had people that weren’t our friends comment on it. Like ‘Wow, real people listen to this as well.’ Okay, but I will let Carmella actually answer the question now.

C: Well, I started this by thinking about vegetables. And I do know that with vegetables, when you cook them, they lose nutrients. But I would say it depends on what you’re counting as nutrition, or what you think is most important to be getting from the food that you’re eating. So in general, when you cook food, meat, vegetables, whatever, you’re losing nutrients, just through the process of cooking. But that’s nutrients like your vitamin C, your… vitamin… others.

[Alix snorts]

C: The other vitamins that you need to survive.

[Both laugh]

A: Your Sunny Delight.

C: Your Sunny Delight. And when you’re in a survival situation, as our subjects so often are–

A: But not always.

C: Not always. In general. What you actually need in that moment is just calories.

A: Any way you can get them.

C: Obviously, the vitamin C will become a problem in the long term. But first things first, enough energy to actually remain alive is important.

A: A minimum of 1,100 calories per day at starvation rations. That’s not a question. That’s a fact. That’s from– That’s from when I worked it all out on the back of a napkin.

C: And it stuck in your head forever.

A: It has.

C: Once you get to the pure calorific value of meat, or human meat in particular, it seems to be pretty much for much. So you will lose a certain amount of energy in the cooking process. However, cooked protein is easier to digest. And when you start looking for the different nutritional values of different types of food on the internet, even in, you know, accredited scientific literature, it’s actually a really contentious science. People can’t seem to agree.

A: And that’s even when the food in question isn’t human flesh.

C: [Laughs] Yeah, exactly. So my advice to anyone who is sitting before a body and wondering whether or not to cook it, would be to prepare it in the way that you best can with the means at hand, and that will make the meat as edible to you as possible. Because I guess at the end of the day, if you are physically able to eat the meat because it’s been cooked, that’s better than if you can’t bring yourself to eat it because it’s raw.

A: If you can’t eat human sushi, human jerky will do.

C: On that note, on to the next question. Another question from an Anonymous user on Tumblr: who, out of the people we researched, resorted to cannibalism the fastest? And their suggestion is Raft of the Medusa.

A: Three days. I didn’t say that with the cadence that we gave it in the episode, but I have to be honest, Raft of the Medusa has come up as a lot of people’s favourite episodes. And I think the fact it only took them three days to descend into utter anarchy, up to and maybe including cannibalism, on day three slash four, has probably got a lot to do with it. I tend to use it as a good recommendation if people want to start the podcast. I’m like, ‘Okay, you want to avoid these really depressing ones until you’re used to it. Go with Medusa.’ And yeah, it’s a bit of a whistlestop introduction to the sort of thing that goes on, however, three days is– It’s around the quickest we’ve ever had.

C: I would counter that with the Nautilus, which, as you will recall, is a case from 1807, in which a group of people aboard a ship hit a rock during a storm, and then spend a very unpleasant time clinging to that rock as various potential helpers sail on by, waving to them dismissively. After four days, they turn to cannibalism.

A: So while we’ve covered before that ten days is generally your average. If you’ve been on starvation rations, Day Zero is the day you run out of starvation rations. From there, it’s then Day Ten, where you tend to start looking at your comrades as lunch, or indeed, pick a fallen comrade and start crunching on down… I don’t like the choice of the word ‘crunch’ that I used then.

C: No.

A: But we’re sticking with it. So ten days is your average, but three to four days. It is possible.

C: That’s like the lowest part of your range.

A: Yeah. Or is it?

C: Or is it? Well, there are some other cases which are a bit more spurious.

A: Have more dubious reference to timescale.

C: Yes. There’s also of course, Alexander Pearce, known as the Maneater of Macquarie Harbour–

A: And you will not believe how long it took us to work out how to say Macquarie when we were first recording that episode.

C: Three days!

[Both laugh]

C: Alexander Pearce was a–

A: Cannibal.

C: I was gonna say escaped convict, but he wasn’t like… ‘Attempted escaped’.

A: Well, no, he did escape.

C: Yeah. And on escape attempt number two–

A: He wasn’t a very good escaped convict. It wasn’t a permanent state of affairs for him.

C: He and his companion ran into the bush where they hid and, according to some sources, sustained themselves on catching fish and after finding a pack of rations. Allegedly on the same day as finding this pack of rations, Alexander Pearce murdered and ate his travelling companion.

A: His travelling companion who was also a massive cannibalism fanboy and thought Pearce was really cool and wanted to know what eating people was like.

C: ‘When I voted for the leopards eating my face party, I didn’t think they’d eat my face!’

A: I mean, maybe he was into it.

C: In any case, I think that this one may be more of a case of it’s more fun in the story if they’ve already had a good meal before they turn to cannibalism, than the actual facts.

A: And speaking of ones where the actual facts may or may not be true – you know it, I’m gonna go for it – it’s the Elizabeth Rashleigh potato boat, where allegedly she still had a hold full of potatoes and the crew still resorted to cannibalism. Is this true? No, it’s not. Is it a fantastic anecdote? Yes, it is. Elizabeth Rashleigh potato boat. I need that on a badge with absolutely no context. Does someone want to design me a badge with ‘Elizabeth Rashleigh potato boat’ on? We do pay everyone who makes us art, they will vouch for us. I want it. I want it to make no sense whatsoever with all of the rest of my Casting Lots merch. Our next question, or set of questions comes, from cannibal_kori on Instagram, who has asked us several questions, which is good fun to sink our teeth into.

C: [At the pun] Yeah!

A: I’ve Stockholm Syndromed Carmella, she actually enjoyed that one.

[Carmella laughs]

A: They have asked question number one: What is our favourite cannibalism story?

C: Shall I go first?

A: Go for it.

C: I’m afraid it is the Raft of the Medusa. That one is hilariously good fun.

A: It’s my mum’s favourite.

C: Well, then we know it’s the best! I would also find that out with the OC.

[Alix wheezes]

C: Sir John Franklin. The Franklin Expedition.

A: What does the C stand for– [Realising] Oh, yeah.

Both: Original cannibal!

A: Yep, I got that. I got it.

C: Just because that was my gateway cannibalism story. And therefore it has a fond place in my heart.

A: That’s what gave you the taste for it.

C: Eyyy.

A: So I’m sure no one will be surprised to hear that the story that has a place in my heart…

C: I don’t know what to say apart from that it’s the Essex, right?

A: Yeah, it’s Essex. It’s the Essex. I read In the Heart of the Sea. It changed me. Somewhere in an attic in Nantucket is Captain Pollard’s diaries. That’s not quite what I mean. It’s like in Mamma Mia.

[Carmella cackles]

A: That’s not what I mean. His account, his narrative, and I want it. It’s– Nathaniel Philbrick’s book is so fantastically written. It’s just– It’s so good. It’s so good. I mean, listen to our episode, if you want to hear me have emotions, but just read In the Heart of the Sea. Don’t watch the film. It’s beautiful. It’s not accurate. I’m going to, um, actually open up this one a bit: ‘What’s your favourite?’ And then answers, ‘Every single one we’ve ever done.’ That’s not quite what I mean. But I also want to– I want to shout out a couple. Obviously, I want to shout out Miracle in the Andes. While a lot of people as soon as you raise the podcast go, oh, did you know about the rugby crew in 1975? And it’s like, yes, yes, I did. We all know how emotional I get about, you know, the human spirit of cannibalism, and that story. Really does it for you. But the other ones, the more unexpected ones, I wanted to give a shout out that I probably only encountered because of the podcast are the weird fucked up shit of the 20th century, aka the Rooseboom and the Dumaru.

C: [Agreeing] Mmm!

A: I’m like what the fuck?

C: Clown boat.

A: Clown boat. ‘Like a clown on an evil sea.’ They don’t write ‘em like that anymore. And just because it is, and I quote myself, ‘the most fucked up shit I’ve ever heard’: Granicus.

C: Oh yeah!

A: That is a horror story that I would expect Ally Wilkes to write.

C: Eyy!

A: In fact, let’s see if we can get them to do it.

C: [Laughs] Book three, Ally, come on.

A: If you’ve not done a re-listen to some of our ‘Fun on Boats’ compilations, there is some wild stuff hidden in those.

C: They are good fun.

A: On boats.

C: And ships.

A: Thank you. Okay, we went off topic there. But let’s get back on topic, to: Do you ever feel people in dire situations should have eaten people sooner? I’ve answered this with one word. Yes.

C: Yes.

A: It does sort of lead into the next question, though, they are combined, which is: Why wait until they’re weak and distressed? The answer to that is sort of those pesky human emotions, isn’t it?

C: Yeah, this like idea that it might be wrong to kill and eat other people. So you have to wait until they’re already dead or almost dead. [Scoffs in mock disgust.]

A: We talk a good game, but I do think we would also be fucked up by it.

C: Yeah.

A: See, and this is where Miracle in the Andes is just your peak example of… I don’t want to say ‘a near perfect survival cannibalism situation’, because that is very disrespectful. And also, you know, untrue because they kept getting hit by fucking avalanches. However, people died in the crash before they suffered the effects of starvation, which meant that there were, quote unquote, ‘fresh bodies’ that they didn’t need to kill that could be eaten humanely. They were in cold conditions, that meant that bodies weren’t going to decompose or rot as quickly. It meant that people didn’t have to get to the state of being weak and distressed before they sat down and had the conversation. And because it was a very rapid and sudden loss of all food and provisions, it meant they had to have that discussion.

C: There was no long term rationing plan.

A: Exactly. And there wasn’t the assumption that oh, we will just live off the land for X, Y and Z. There was no choice but to stop and think about it. Compare that to train guy…

C: Oh, Flatters?

A: Flatters!

C: Compare that to [bad French accent] Monsieur Flatters.

A: [Worse French accent] Monsieur Flatters. [Normally] With his cameleers. It’s like comparing chalk and cheese.

C: In semi-jest, we’ve answered yes to this question, however, one thing that I can say for sure, is that there have definitely been situations where we would have liked them to use the bodies to catch more food.

A: Thank you, Peggy. The only ship that I can think of that actually use the body as bait.

C: See, in some cases, the right thing to do isn’t to eat the body immediately; it’s to use the body to acquire more food.

A: Sort of cannibalism by proxy.

C: Yeah.

A: I can’t believe no one’s asked a question about gastronomic inceset. I’m having to insert it into making up weird phrases about cannibalism.

[Carmella laughs]

A: Okay, we’ve not quite finished though, we still have more from cannibal_kori. Their final question is: What is your favourite representation of cannibalism on television? I am struggling to think of a single programme I’ve watched that has fictional cannibalism in it because I am a fact purist. So what I’m going to say here is I give my oath to you, our listeners, that by the time that you are listening to this podcast, that I will have watched the film Alive.

[Carmella laughs]

A: Because it’s actually getting silly now. Not just a documentary, not just a podcast about it. I will watch the fictionalised film. On my honour, I promise as an ex Scout. I will do it. Carm, would you like to talk about television, because you know more about media than me?

C: I would follow that up with… ‘None of them.’

[Alix laughs]

C: Out of– I greatly enjoy cannibalism media, as it will be no surprise to hear. However, despite my enjoyment of it, I think that they normally get the cannibalism wrong. You’ve got your survival cannibalism shows like The Terror or like Yellowjackets, where it’s just not accurate to how people really behave in real life, given what we’ve seen. And then of course, you’ve got your shows like Hannibal, which are all fun and games, but–

A: Bougie cannibalism.

C: And whilst I greatly enjoy Hannibal, it’s a real– Again–

A: [Laughing] Are you saying Hannibal’s not realistic?

C: Ha! Whilst I greatly enjoy Hannibal, it doesn’t quite scratch the itch of real-life survival cannibalism in the same way.

A: Can you recommend us some better cannibalism media? That is a challenge we put to you. Now we actually have one more question from cannibal_kori, but what we’re actually going to do since we’re on the topic of cannibalism media, if you don’t mind Carm, I’m going to jump to another question that I think we need to, um, explain.

C: We need to address… It’s the elephant in the room.

A: It is the massive white polar bear in the room. And it’s from someone who has such a long name on Twitter that I can’t read their handle, but nonetheless, such a beautiful name, so I’m going to read it in full, because Jess The Polar Dilf Enthusiast–

[Carmella giggles]

A: Has addressed us with a question which I think might be slightly leaned towards me, Alix, but nonetheless, I will atone for my sins– Who was re-listening to our Franklin episode and got the sense that we didn’t love The Terror series. Was there a reason for that? Or did it just not resonate with us? So I’m going to hand over to you, Carm, to start with, because you said you’ve been watching survival cannibalism media such as The Terror and they got things wrong. So I’m going to hand that one to you. And then I will explain myself.

C: Indeed, as we discussed with the Mayday Podcast when they guested earlier this season, I loved The Terror! I really enjoyed it. I had a great time watching it. However, do I think it’s the best depiction of survival cannibalism? I’m not saying it’s inaccurate, but–

A: I am.

C: It’s very much in the camp of the bad guys do the cannibalism. The good guys don’t want to and are only forced to buy pressure. And also, I mean, a little bit, the bad guys are gay. So there’s multiple things in The Terror that I would just critique, despite greatly enjoying it as a piece of media.

A: The ratty gay cannibal lives. Well–

C: And you know, he is an icon, he– And significantly does not live.

A: Yeah, that was the bit I was about to correct there, I was like ‘well…’ It just really– I know that they were going for ‘look, he thrives in being evil’, but it really inherently pissed me off that everyone else was looking haggard, and he was looking fine. Like, I know, that’s the visual imagery that they’re going for. And I know they had a massive fuck-off polar bear. So they weren’t exactly being completely a fictionalised recreation. But that just really annoyed me. And also, yes, as Carm says, the cannibalism was very much what evil people do for evil reasons. And as we’ve seen, that’s just not true. Anyone could do cannibalism, evil or not. But I will–

C: Which leads us on to the true question at the heart of The Terror. Who is actually evil? Is it Hickey or, Alix–?

A: How dare you accuse me of being in The Terror?!

[Both laugh]

A: Apparently my theory that the true villain–

[Both giggle]

A: I’m genuinely not sure whether my slightly autistic, acerbic wit came through when I made the argument that Goodsir was the real villain of The Terror. I know he’s not. I just think it’s really funny to accuse him of being the bad guy, because he is one of like, two good men in a crew and cast of like, 130. But yes, no, I am fully aware that Goodsir is not the true villain. You know who is the true villain? Tobias Menzies. And do you know why? Because I met him once. He was not polite. He was not a polite man. And it did mean that I went into The Terror slightly biassed against James Fitzjames. It was like ‘I hope you get cannibalised! You’re a bad man.’ And then they didn’t even bloody cannibalise him. When he asked for it.

C: Where is the justice?

A: I’m sorry, but ‘My body, use it, feed the men.’ They could have turned that show around, had they made that decision? Because what a peak moment of the humanity of cannibalism. ‘My body, use it, feed the men.’ And the show didn’t even acknowledge it! it was like that was Tobias Menzies’ redeeming moment for me. I don’t care that I’m conflating Tobias Menzies and James Fitzjames.

[Carmella laughs]

A: And the real story of the Franklin Expedition. Don’t give a shit. If they’d have done that? Five stars.

C: So to fully answer your question, it’s that from like a fun narrative storytelling point of view, we can acknowledge that it’s a good show, but from our lofty heights as survival cannibalism experts, the show is trash.

A: [Laughs] You can get cancelled now.

[Carmella laughs]

A: But no. I know this is my disparaging comment about In the Heart of the Sea as well. But The Terror is a beautiful show, like the accuracy of the set pieces and the uniforms and just it resonates so well, that it’s actually quite disappointing yhat they went for cannibalism equals bad guys.

C: Yeah.

A: Because that’s always going to dock some stars in our opinion.

C: Too easy.

A: It’s too basic.

C: To return to cannibal_kori, if we may, they had one final question for us. Which is: [with strange enunciation] Would either of us try human meat? I don’t know why I pronounced that like Matt Berry in What We Do In The Shadows!

[Alix laughs]

C: [More normally] Would either of us two try human meat if we could, without killing anyone, of course?

A: We do appreciate the disclaimer.

[Carmella laughs]

A: Yes, with a caveat. If it was like that, lab grown meat?

C: Oh, yeah!

A: Definitely. If it was from a person. From a human person. Human-grown, as it were. I’m less likely to say yes. Well, you don’t know where they’ve been. I don’t think… Oh, this is one hell of a sentence to say. I don’t think people are, you know, bred for their meat.

C: [Laughs] So you’re more worried about the taste experience?

A: The taste experience. Believe it or not, the ethics. The general… Well, you know, the guy that made tacos out of his own leg?

C: Yeah.

A: I mean, he lost that in a motorbike crash. I’m like that’s not exactly…

C: You’re concerned about the hygiene?

A: Yeah, it’s not hygienic. And also it’s like with not necessarily organ donation because you don’t really have a choice about that, you take it or leave it, but thinking about say like sperm donors, like you get…

C: [Laughing] Okay! This has taken this has taken an entirely new tack!

A: But, like… You get you get like all of the specs.

C: [In a farmer voice] ‘That’s sperm, that is.’ [Pause] Don’t know why I said it in that voice!

A: Like, you know, ‘five foot nine, brown hair, athletic, Taurus.’

C: You spend a lot of time on sperm donor websites do you, Alix?

A: I watch a lot of documentaries. I’ve seen it in films.

C: So it must be true.

A: It must be true. I don’t know. I just– I just feel like you know, ‘Oh, do you want to try some human sausage?’ from someone off the street is likely to be dodgy. So I would feel more comfortable having lab-grown human. Go on then, Carmella, yes or no? Human meat.

C: Well, I question the phrasing of the question of ‘would I, if I could?’ I think it’s more that I would eat it if I had to in a survival situation. But I’m not going to choose to recreationally sample it, no.

A: Because I think that’s the nature of the question. The question is, if you could just give it a go?

C: Yeah, for funsies. And as everyone knows, my opinion of cannibalism for fun is very low.

A: It’s a serious subject. No fun allowed when it comes to cannibalism. No one must enjoy it. And that is why we are a serious podcast.

C: No jokes here, everything we say is entirely sincere.

A: And this is why we must close the podcast forthwith, for we have enjoyed it too much.

C: [Laughs] Next question comes from Ally Wilkes.

A: Friend of the podcast.

C: Not sure why they didn’t just ask us this earlier when we were chatting, but whatever.

A: I think it’s because we explicitly asked for questions for the Q&A.

C: No, this is all completely organic. Ally asks, in a situation in which everyone has the same limited access to… [Whispered] Fuck. [Struggling to pronounce ‘antiscorbutics’] Antiscor– Antis– I thought it was ‘antiscorbitants’ but that’s not a… In a situation in which everyone has the same limited access to vitamin C, would eating the flesh of your comrades offer an advantage in terms of vitamin C intake?

A: Yes, but not in the way you’d probably be hoping. I mean, as Carm’s already said, when she was answering about is it better to cook the meat or eat it raw, if you cook it, you’re gonna get rid of some of the vitamins in it. But let’s be real, there are not a lot of [also unable to pronounce it] antisco– Fuck. There are not a lot of antiscorbitants [sic] going to be knocking around in these bodies. So to be perfectly honest with you, it is more of a point of we’re cutting down on the number of people who need vitamin C, than you’re likely to get much usable vitamin C out of a human body. You’ll get some versus eating nothing and dying. But it’s probably not going to be added to the Boots wellness aisle anytime soon. And finally, a question that’s come out from several people. Well, question slash ‘more of a comment really’ (I’m looking at you, Ellis) asking whether we’ve done anything on Cannibal Island, the Siberian Gulag Nazino. Hate to break it to people, but we have.

C: It was very early on in Season One.

A: So as a little treat, Carmella’s gonna tell us again.

C: Alix told it last time. Clearly, it wasn’t memorable enough.

[Alix laughs sarcastically]

C: So to recap; Nazino Island, or Cannibal Island.

A: [Ironically] What happened there?

C: Or [page turning noises] ‘The Island of Death’. In 1933, 6,700 prisoners were deported by the Soviet authorities to Nazino Island in Siberia, just north of the Arctic Circle.

A: So this is an ice episode.

C: It is. Ostensibly, they were sent there to construct a special settlement

A: Of death.

C: Noice. [Laughs] Not nice. With guards overseeing their every move, they were left with no tools or shelter, and just a handful of rye flour handed out once every five days.

A: ‘You’ll be fine. Just get on with it.’

C: ‘How much do people need to eat? One handful of rye flour every five days? Yeah, that sounds right.’

A: Sounds about right.

C: Nearly 300 people died on the first day alone just from the bad conditions. The prisoners suffered starvation, violence, dysentery and exposure to the elements. Not to mention the reign of terror led by the guards, who executed people for minor offences and, you know, wouldn’t let them leave. And yet, more and more people kept being shipped in.

A: Well, they’re trying to settle, and for some reason these people just keep dying.

C: They’re just not thriving in these conditions, what?

A: They’re just not putting the effort in.

C: By three months in, only about a third of the prisoners remain alive. And you guessed it, they’d been resorting to cannibalism to do this.

A: [With fear] I think I’ve just remembered one of the stories from this one.

C: It’s bad.

A: It is bad.

C: Content warning: this is gonna get gory.

A: Oh, yeah. [Strained] Carry on.

C: This is of course murder cannibalism, the type of cannibalism where they’re not already dead. Victims – often the women – were tied to trees so that flesh could be stripped off them like, as we said in our previous account of this, ‘kebab meat’.

A: [Horrified] Yeah.

C: Yeah, you remember the kebab meat now?

A: I remember the kebab meat now. Maybe everyone just sort of pushed this one out of their minds.

C: From the horror. A resident of nearby Nazino Village, later in life, recalled a woman from the so-called Island of Death was brought to her house en route to another camp.

A: She’s the woman with the legs, isn’t she?

C: Her calves had been cut off and cooked to eat… She was still alive.

A: [Shuddering] Yeah, that’s my entire reaction to that.

C: Later, several officials were reprimanded and sentenced to prison terms of one to three years.

A: Now, I don’t want to say that a just punishment would have been being sent to cannibal island. But punishment fits the crime? No, no, it’s just too sick. It’s just too sick.

C: So if you’d forgotten that one, you’re welcome for being reminded now. But on the subject of cases from the past that we may have missed.

A: Well, all of our cases are from the past. It’s how history works.

C: I–

A: [Giggles with malice] I mean, you know I’m not gonna cut that.

C: No. Thank you for that contribution, Alix.

A: We’re coming up to the end, I’m getting overexcited.

C: As I was saying, despite our scraping the barrel and really scraping it, I think Alix has managed to grab up one final morsel of food from the wood of the cask.

A: Maybe like part of the lid had like a leather stoppage on, and we’re literally scraping off.

C: Like sucking the cork.

A: Yeah.

C: Yeah.

A: But yes, I have found another case. It’s another ice one. And firstly, this is not properly scripted. So who knows where this is going to go? And secondly, this is a Carmella special.

C: [Delighted] Did they or didn’t they?

A: It’s a did they or didn’t they?

C: Yes!! Okay.

A: After three seasons of having a go at Carmella for doing did they or didn’t they? I thought the best treat would be to do a Carmella special of my own.

C: They definitely did. Continue.

A: The end.

C: Full stop.

A: So we’re going to set the scene. I’ve said it’s an ice one. I’ve said I’m into my 20th century bullshit. And what does Alix also quite like doing? Normally I’ve had about one per season of ones that involve…

C: Gastronomic incest?

A: There is no gastronomic incest.

C: [Laughs] I’m running out. The tender human soul?

A: Do you want me to tell the story or not? It’s a flying one.

C: Oh, okay! I didn’t guess that.

A: No.

C: We got a plane.

A: We don’t have a plane.

C: Oooh?

A: We’ve got an airship.

C: Ooh… what’s an airship? Like a hot air balloon?

A: Yeah, it’s like a blimp.

C: [Excited again] Oh, like a blip! We got a blimp!

A: It’s like a blimp. It’s like the Hindenburg.

C: We’re blimping.

A: We’re blimping.

C: Blimp away.

A: So it’s 1928. We’re in the Arctic and an Italian airship named… the Italia.

C: Simple, love it.

A: Otherwise known as N-4, because that’s the– there’s a long and convoluted history that to be honest, I’ve not written down and there is a very good book called N-4 Down by Mark Piesing that I highly recommend. But all we need to know is it’s 1928, the airship Italia is trying to be the first airship to sail over the North Pole.

C: Why is everyone so obsessed?

A: They just think it’s neat. She did not succeed in flying over the North Pole.

C: [Mock surprise] No!

A: So her captain is a man called Umberto Nobile. He is joined, as he is on every single journey that he ever does, with his dog.

[Carmella gasps in delight]

A: Titania.

C: Have you just made up this story?

A: Nope! Genuinely has a dog.

C: It’s gonna go badly wrong.

A: Dog survives.

C: Hey!

A: Not all the people survive.

C: Ah, who cares about them?

A: But the dog survives. The explorer Roald Amundsen actually gets really pissed off with Nobile, because he’s like, ‘why the fuck is he bringing that fucking dog?’ It’s not even a working dog, it’s like a terrier.

C: Oh, is it like his comfort animal? Wait, no, that’s not the word.

A: Emotional support?

C: His emotional support animal.

A: Yeah.

C: Aww.

A: I mean, you need emotional support when you do what he does, which is–

C: Yes, you really do!

A: Crash his fucking airship into the Arctic.

A: Now who’s laughing, Amundsen? Still Amundsen.

A: Amundsen actually dies in trying to rescue him, so it’s definitely not Amundsen! He’s going down like ‘that fucking dog!’

C: The dog gets the last laugh.

A: [Agreeing] The dog gets the last laugh. Okay, so on the 25 of May, N-4, the Italia, crashes. Now, as we’ve covered, the Italia is an airship, not an aeroplane.

C: Blimp.

A: Blimp.

C: Schloop.

A: Schloop! [Laughs] And something very unfortunate happens when she crashes.

C: More unfortunate than crashing?

A: More– You say that, it is more important than crashing.

C: Explosion?

A: More unfortunate. She partially crashes. Her gondola, where some of the crew are, crashes. Nine men and Titania are thrown to the ground. The rest of the crew, with the gondola having been smashed and the weight leaving…

C: [Realising] Oh.

A: Fly away. They have no means of control and are never seen again.

C: Yeah, that is unfortunate.

A: It is quite unfortunate. The 25 of May 1928. Nine men and one dog are somewhere in the Arctic. And that question of ‘somewhere in the Arctic, where are they?’ continues. I’ve already spoiled that Amundsen comes on a rescue and dies. But there’s a little bit of history between Nobile and Amundsen. They’ve worked together before, didn’t get on.

C: [Disappointed] Oh, okay. I thought [suggestively] a little bit of history, huh?

A: It’s not a Bills & Boon history.

C: Why don’t– Why don’t they get on, you know? Bad breakup?

A: ‘I can’t believe you hate my dog, Amundsen.’

C: ‘It’s me or the dog.’

A: ‘I’m sticking with the dog.’ So that is definitely 100% what happened there? However, Amundsen is one of the explorers who’s like, ‘Nope, we’re going on a rescue mission. Off we go.’

C: It’s like no matter how much I hate you, you don’t deserve to starve to death in the Arctic.

A: Exactly. And it is recognised by Arctic explorers that this shit is bad and not going to be good for anyone on the ground, and so the rescue effort begins. But the men of the Italia also want to save themselves.

C: Good for them.

A: Two Italian naval officers, Adalberto Mariano and Felippo Zappi, Swedish meteorologist Finn Malmgren, who has an injured shoulder from having been thrown out of a fucking airship–

C: That will do it.

A: Decide on 30 of May that they are going to walk to safety. They’re going to go and find help. They’re going to go to King’s Bay. That is where they’d flown out of, so it’s not entirely unreasonable. Spoilers: yeah, it is. On the 11 of July, rescue ship the Krassin comes across Zappi and Mariano. There is no sign of Malmgren. His body is never found.

C: [In a silly detective voice] Oh, how interesting!

A: Now, Malmgren had been in the Arctic before. He’d flown on another airship, the Norge, in 1926. He’s actually, if you’re into your metrological Swedish articles, he’s published. He’s–

C: [Mock impressed] Oh, wow, there we go!

A: He’s still being cited and stuff to this day. Like he did know his shit. However…

C: He died.

A: He died. The end. No. However, clearly, that wasn’t quite enough. And so the question is, what happened to Malmgren?

C: They ate him.

A: Allegedly, on the 15 or the 16 of June, Malmgren collapsed and asked to be left behind so the others could go on.

C: I mean, that happens.

A: It does happen. When Zappi and Mariano were rescued, it was noted that Mariano was in the standard level of salvation one would expect, but Zappi was, quote, “well nourished”, and also wearing all of Malmgren’s extra clothes, his coat and his gloves.

C: So he wasn’t sharing with Mariano?

A: The day before they were rescued… Now this is one hell of a Russian name for me to try and pronounce not having written it phonetically. Chukhnovsky. Is it right? I don’t know. Did I say it confidently? That’s good enough.

C: There we go.

A: The Soviet rescue pilot of the Karrin [sic] allegedly spotted three figures. Tow alive and one corpse.

C: Hmm.

A: There are a lot of accusations that end up in the media in the following days and weeks after the rescue of the survivors, both human and canine–

C: Yay!

A: That the two Italians cannibalised, quote, “that Swedish man”.

[Carmella laughs]

A: “Nobile aides accused of cannibalism on icy trek”. And this was raised, you know how the gutter press is, to various Arctic explorers, all of whom refused to pass judgement on what had or hadn’t happened. Because they quote, “knew what snow and ice could drive a man to.” Now Zappi actually would later go and speak to Malmgren’s mother and seek forgiveness? It’s not quite clear, but apparently, she did forgive him. And–

C: Mariano.

A: Mariano. I feel bad for Mariano because A) I can’t remember his name a lot, B) He’s not the one that mainly gets accused of the cannibalism, and C) he dies only a few months after being rescued. So all in all, he’s not having a lot of luck. But at least he isn’t Mawson. Zappi is my Mawson. But Malmgren’s mother forgives the two of them for whatever they may have done, and says that she entirely believes the account that they gave, they didn’t do anything.

C: Hm, So why do they need forgiveness then?

A: And in the other slightly strange situation, Mussolini’s government– Oh, yeah, that’s fascism going on in this story as well. It has everything.

C: Hey!

A: Mussolini’s government would actually give Malmgren’s mother a pension. A Swedish man who happened to die on an Italian expedition gets a full pension. Almost as though she’s being paid off? The book N-4 Down does actually say that this might give some weight to those accusations. Zappi: did he do it?

C: Absolutely.

A: I knew you’d say that–

C: Zappi was happy to eat another man. That was the worst way to finish that joke.

A: I’d actually like to– This is gonna be quite a long quote. Because this is from Time magazine 1928.

C: Okay! I’m ready.

A: And it has some fantastic accusations of cannibalism in. It’s about the Nobile expedition, and it’s about whether or not Malmgren was eaten. Quote: “Excitedly played by citizens of many lands, last week, was the game of Ring Around Nobile—a question game. Was that Swede really eaten by those two Italians?”

C: My favourite game!

A: “Would Dictator Mussolini snub and degrade General Nobile?”

C: Would he?

A: “What about Titina, the General’s little, yapping fox terrier bitch?”

C: What about her?!

A: “Why wasn’t she eaten?”

C: Because she’s a good girl.

A: This is… It’s on a par with ‘clown on an evil sea’. I’m not sure it’s the best quote we’ve ever given on this podcast but still, I’m glad we’ve got something with this much raw power for our final episode.

C: Okay, I’m ready.

A: [Snorts] Serious. “Is bitch eating worse than cannibalism?”

[Both laugh]

C: Is it? We all must know the answer to this question!

A: Oh dear.

C: Is bitch eating worse than cannibalism, Alix?

A: Sometimes you just read a sentence and I’m like, ‘oh, that’s going in the podcast. Can I find a context? No, I can’t. Is it going in? Yes, it is.’ Bitch eating. Worse than cannibalism. Okay, to be honest about sort of the end of that bit of the quote. It then just goes on with, you know, a bit of Soviet talk, and then goes on to say that, quote: “Coldly, factually the Soviet press service Tass presented details on the basis of which cannibalism might be imputed to Captains Filipo Zappi and Alberto Mariano (respectively Pilot and Navigator of the Nobile dirigible Italia), who set off to tramp across the ice to land with the Swedish meteorologist Dr. Finn Malmgren, but were alone when rescued…Tass reported–” I don’t know who Tass is, by the way, but he reported “that, on the day before the rescue… a Soviet plane photographed them from the air, and that a third man or his remains was… visible, prostrate on the ice. Tass told that when Captain Zappi was rescued he said that Dr. Malmgren had been left behind some days previously–”

C: [Intrigued] Hmm!

A: “(At his own request) to die. Tass stated that Captain Zappi was wearing, when rescued, Dr. Malmgren’s fur boots and coat, and two other pairs of fur boots and two other coats–”

C: [Laughing] How many men did he eat?! And how was he wearing that many boots?

[Both laugh]

A: “Whereas Zappi’s comrade, Captain Mariano, seemed sick, weak, and wore no fur boots.” End of quote. So that’s the basis of my ‘did he or didn’t he?’

C: Well, he certainly had a lot of fur boots.

A: And that is enough to condemn any man.

C: If we were going to end on any story, that story certainly has all of the hallmarks of a Casting Lots episode.

A: We weirdly made it a bit Bills & Boon.

C: We shoehorned in all the old jokes.

A: We didn’t manage to shoe in turtle ducks or portable soup.

C: We’ve said them now.

A: I’ve said them now. Is there anything else that our audience will want to hear us say?

C: Tiny horses.

A: Cameleers.

[Carmella chuckles]

A: Gastronomic incest.

[Silence]

C: We can’t let that be the final word of the podcast.

A: I think we’re gonna have to! I don’t really want to say it’s been an honour. That sounds weird. But also…

C: It’s been a pleasure.

A: It has been a pleasure. No, this podcast has been… I’m getting emotional.

C: It’s a shame that we’ll never speak to one another again after this moment.

A: [Laughs] It’s been nice knowing you, Carmella. I mean, it’s been a lot more work than I think I could have ever imagined when I slightly drunkenly said ‘do you want to make a cannibalism podcast?’ Because I was like, ‘Yeah, it’ll be a couple of episodes. We’ll have some fun. It’ll be fine.’ And then four years and a pandemic later. Not that the two are connected… But no, it’s strange to be wrapping up on something that has been quite a big part– I mean, you’re a hotshot soon-to-be-published author now. But this has been a big part of my life. You’re on to bigger and better projects.

C: No, no, nothing will ever trump Casting Lots.

A: There is no sincerity in Carmella’s eyes. It’s been good.

C: It’s been good. Thank you again for listening, and we hope that you’ve had your fill.

A: And if you haven’t, well, hopefully, you’ve learned what to do by now…

C: Eyyy!

A: Casting Lots does not actually endorse cannibalism.

[Both laugh]

[Outro Music – Daniel Wackett]

A: Thank you for listening to our Season Four taster menu. This really is the final season. We mean it this time. We’ve actually run out of content now.

[Carmella laughs]

A: For now. But we hope that you’ve enjoyed having an extra helping.

[Outro music continues]

A: Casting Lots Podcast can be found on Twitter, Instagram and Tumblr as @CastingLotsPod, and on Facebook as Casting Lots Podcast.

C: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, don’t forget to subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and please rate, review and share to bring more people to the table.

A: Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast, is researched, written and recorded by Alix and Carmella, with post-production and editing also by Carmella and Alix. Art and logo design by Ashley – @Tallestfriend on Twitter and Instagram – with audio and music by Daniel Wackett – Daniel Wackett on SoundCloud and @ds_wack on Twitter. Casting Lots is part of the Morbid Audio Podcast Network – search #MorbidAudio on Twitter – and the network’s music is provided by Mikaela Moody – mikaelamoody1 on Bandcamp.

[Morbid Audio Sting – Mikaela Moody]