Wolfen

2 Guys And A Chainsaw

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Week 3 of Werewolf Month (brought to you by Manscaped!) brings you the THIRD “werewolf” movie released in 1981. But is it even a werewolf flick at all? Opinions are as mixed as the message in this artsy oddity based on a Whitley Streiber novel and starring a host of famous actors, rounded off by none other than Albert Finney, Gregory Hines and perennial Two-Guys Favorite, Tom Noonan.

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Automatic Transcript

Wolfen (1981)

Episode 392, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: It’s our werewolf cycle here on Two Guys in a Chainsaw. We kicked it off with An American Werewolf in London and The Howling – two comedic, campier werewolf outings, like most of what I imagined we would be doing. And then, uh, I was clued into this third film, which was also released in 1981, the same year the other two were released.

It did not do as well as the others, probably because it’s definitely more of an artsy, thoughtful film than your campy horror movie, which apparently was not what the distributors wanted. They wanted something a little more just campy and horror. It is based on a 1978 novel called The Wolfen by Whitley Streiber.

And I’ve brought up Whitley Streiber on our podcast before, back when we talked about the Alien Encounter movie that we did, the found footage movie of the family invaded by aliens.

Craig: Okay.

Todd: I think it was during that movie because Whitley Stryber wrote, it’s supposed to be nonfiction, called Communion and has since become, he claims he doesn’t know what has been visiting him and he’s been having these encounters with he stopped short of calling it extraterrestrial He thinks that’s jumping to conclusions, but he wrote two very popular novels not novels Sorry nonfiction books called communion and transformation in 1986 and 1989.

I think I read both of them I was utterly fascinated with them and his descriptions of the people who visited him were Sort of the basis of where we get that modern conception. Oh, that’s why I talked about it in that podcast, because that conception of the alien with the big oval head. Yeah. And those black eyes sort of originated by him.

But before he wrote those books, he wrote a couple novels that were turned into movies. The Wolven, which is this one, and The Hunger. Which is a vampire movie, which we might end up doing at some point. I think Susan Sarandon, David Bowie, they’re both in it. This one, uh, definitely takes a different, uh, tact.

This is a very sort of like, almost, it’s very much like an allegory for what are we doing to the earth, the ecology, you know, I was getting a little bit of like deliverance ish vibes, especially in the beginning. Deliverance in the beginning of that film takes great pains to set up this metaphor that I think it’s It’s doing where it’s showing lots of, uh, city development and, and, and destruction of the rural landscape and a plowing down forests and things for progress.

And, you know, just that imagery at the beginning, you know, really sets up that tone. And I felt like this movie, I didn’t actually end up taking a lot of notes on this movie because I watched the first 15 minutes, sat down, was really taking notes on it. And then I, I couldn’t watch anymore because I had to go to sleep.

And then the rest of it, I watched in one big swell and, uh, didn’t take any notes. But like, I’ve got like a. Guys with headbands and a bird on top of the historic bridge in a big city building demolition, rich people snorting coke in the back of a limo but hippies are throwing a bottle at them and then running along the support cable of a bridge It’s just all of these like crazy scenes all kind of slammed at you together which betrays the fact that it was directed by a Documentary filmmaker, Michael Wadley.

And apparently he was taken off the project in post production because the first cut that he submitted was over four hours long. So he still was credited as the director, but this was heavily edited by Raymond Hsu, who is an award winning, uh, Academy Award winning editor. Did Star Wars and One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest and a bunch of big famous films.

Anyway, also starring Albert Finney. Oh my God, I just couldn’t watch this movie and not think Daddy Warbucks the whole time. Oh

Craig: God, I didn’t even go that far back. Like I looked at, obviously I recognized him because he’s just that old guy in everything. Right. And has been that old guy in everything forever.

Alan walked through as I was watching it and It was the part where he was walking up on the bridge and he, he, he said, did he ask Aaron Brockovich if he could go up on that bridge?

He’s been in a bazillion, bazillion things. And it was weird to see him in this movie. Cause I guess I kind of just have always, my whole life is. Far as I remember, thought of him as that old man and stuff. And in this, I feel like he’s supposed to be sexy. I don’t know. No, he’s not.

Todd: I felt he was supposed to be almost a little washed up because he’s a, he’s like retired, right?

He’s like retired with the police force, but he’s kind of pulled out of retirement for this. I think I saw a quote by him once that’s claimed that, you know, he said that like he, he sees himself in these movies and. He’s asked to play these parts that are way older than he really is. I mean, he just kind of always has had that old look and, and, uh, he’s been cast for it, you know, a lot of times like, well, I can’t remember what other famous role he had when he was like in his late thirties and it was playing like a 50 something year old guy.

I don’t know. Like, and

Craig: it’s not like he’s an unattractive person. Like he, you know, he’s a good looking guy. He’s just not. I feel like this is, I don’t know, any leading man, you know, the Brad Pitt role or what, like he’s supposed to, he’s the lead guy. So today he would probably be played by somebody a little bit more handsome.

I don’t know. I’m digging myself into a hole. Get me out of it. But you know, Albert Finney, he’s been in a ton of stuff and he’s great and he’s the lead in this movie and he plays this guy named Dewey Wilson who they bring in like, okay, We, you already kind of covered that first part where like it opens up on a shot of the Twin Towers that will forever be eerie to me every time I see one of these old movies that heavily, and it’s so often heavily features the Twin Towers, it gives me the heebie jeebies, but you left out some important things like the Native American on top of a bridge swinging around one of those crocodile Dundee things.

Oh boy, I was like, what is happening right then the slums buildings being demolished. You’re right. It’s setting a scene because this is going to be a very, very important thing, but there’s also prominently this church. Now what I read is like this whole devastated area was just real somewhere in the Bronx.

Yeah. The Bronx. Right.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: But they built that church. And, and destroyed it afterwards, like burned it or whatever. But it looks cool, like it’s like this big, kinda, decrepit church, like this, the ceiling’s all fallen in, it’s mostly just like the frame, but it still is obviously a church. And that’s an important location too, and at this point, we get our first Instance of wolf vision.

Yeah.

Todd: It’s so interesting that we have covered just within the last month predator, right? Because a predator is kind of known for that wolf, that, that predator vision. And that was what, what 87, 86, where this is 81. And this is recorded as the first instance of that technique being used in a movie.

Craig: I read that.

And I wondered if it was true. Cause if it’s true, that’s pretty cool. Because. Bazillions of movies have used it since as POV shot of alien or monster or animals or something. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It feels like it came earlier. It’s a little more rough, I guess, as far as a special effect is concerned, but yeah, it’s not as colorful.

Let’s put it that way. Yeah. Okay. Let’s just leave it at that. But it’s that it’s that concept and then there’s like a helicopter flying around and you talked about there’s this wealthy couple like snorting coke in a limousine. One of the Native Americans from the bridge throws a bottle at them. I’m like, what is happening?

Like, well, this movie was weird. Like, I

Todd: get you didn’t see this is setting up this whole like the progress. Why would I think that? Cause it’s like,

Craig: why would I be like, this is going to be a movie of like. Native Americans and gentrification, like, no, it’s just some random guy on a bridge throwing shit at a limo.

There’s nothing random. I don’t have any idea who they

Todd: are. There’s nothing random when a person cuts together a movie, they do it for a purpose. I’m instantly looking for the purpose and I thought, I mean, if it wasn’t so weird and so out there as a Native American guy on the top, you know, doing his thing on the top of this bridge overlooking the modern city, which is sort of trope y, right?

Yes, then it’s this wealthy couple snorting coke and then they’re throwing a bottle at him, you know, I mean

Craig: the guy like like Scurries down the bridge like a spider monkey. Yeah, just throw a bottle of beer or something It’s weird people. I can’t I yeah, like I just didn’t know what was going on and I still Still, it took a while like they set up this whole thing.

There’s this couple. All we know about them is that they’re wealthy and debaucherous. That’s it. That’s all we know. Yeah. And they, they go to battery park and they’re walking around and we see that a wolf. We presume since the movie is called Wolfen is watching them and they have a driver and the driver is just like hanging out.

And another part of the park or whatever and cinematically, it’s kind of cool. Like there’s really cool shots and, and they take advantage of some cool set pieces. I don’t know if those were actual things that were in the park that they just used. I kind of doubt it because they looked very fragile. It was like some kind of like weird ass window and they were playing, the wealthy couple was like playing around in or whatever.

One of the things that bothers me about this movie is that this wolf vision, and I guess it’s explainable, but I feel like it doesn’t really get explained until the end. These wolves can apparently get right up within the wolf’s vision. A couple of feet of people and they don’t see them right now. Are we to come, they’re not, Oh, so many things to say.

First of all, we were bamboozled because this is not a werewolf movie, correct? It’s not.

Todd: It’s not a werewolf movie. It’s a shapeshifters movie, but shapeshifting is werewolfism, really. They

Craig: talk about shapeshifting, but it really just seems like, I, I’m not even, we’re jumping to the end. Is that okay? I don’t know.

I think we can. I, I think we can, because it doesn’t really matter. And I was just so confused all along. I didn’t understand what was happening. I was told. Not by you, even by the internet that I was watching a werewolf movie and we had just watched those last two that had these great transformation moments and I’m waiting and I’m waiting.

I’m like, when are we going to get the great transformation moment? And I’m like, at least when are we going to get to see the werewolf? We’re not because it’s not a werewolf movie. Yeah, it’s a movie about, I don’t get it. Like, is it literally human Native American spirits that can shape shift? Or is it just other beings who are like Native Americans in their lifestyles, but they predate us and they’re just kind of still hanging around and surviving?

I didn’t get

Todd: it. I think that’s open to interpretation, and the latter is maybe a little closer to home, but they share a kinship with Native Americans, and because the Native Americans are well aware of them, Right. And they call them the other peoples, right, the other tribes, or whatever. Something like that.

And I think this has its roots and I, I did read this. I don’t remember where, but this sort of has its roots, especially in the novel, which, which actually the novel kicks off apparently in this, in the eight 17th century, the original Dutch explorers to the U S would refer to native Americans and wolves using similar terminology, calling them the Wolven.

You know, to kind of, you know, it’s a racist thing. I’m sure.

Craig: Well, that’s what I was going to say. I mean, that was to intentionally dehumanize them, right? Exactly. To equate them with animals.

Todd: Right.

Craig: I don’t know. I feel like there’s something really interesting there and it doesn’t really, it’s suggested throughout.

Kind of, but there’s a huge exposition dump in like the last 15 minutes.

Todd: Yeah, there is. And

Craig: I just kind of wish that they had placed that exposition dump earlier. Yeah. Because I was just confused as to what was going on. This is an odd movie, Todd. It’s unlike the types of movies that we usually do.

Especially, it was not at all being a werewolf movie, which it’s not. What I. Had anticipated, this is much more like a drama. It’s much more like one of those Italian movies that you would make me watch. Wouldn’t you agree? Like it’s, it’s far more interested in like intrigue than

Todd: Action and it is intense in that way.

Some of the intensity maybe gets lost when you’re just a little confused by it as well. Right? But like, I think it’s very brooding. I think it’s very you’re not quite sure what it’s about, but you just haven’t a sense of unease. I felt a sense of unease through a lot of the movie. There were times in which I thought something important might be happening or something sinister was around the corner, and sometimes it seemed like that was true, and sometimes it seemed like it wasn’t.

It had very dreamlike I felt a little bit like Possession, in a way. When we weren’t sure exactly what we were watching, if it was real or if it wasn’t. This is a little more grounded in reality than Possession. But also like a Ken, ugh, Kenneth, uh, what’s his name? Lair of the White Worm. Was one of them. I don’t know.

Yeah, where, where he goes to these odd places and he’s setting up a tone. Like you said, Oh, Gothic was another one of his right where he’s setting up this thematic thing and you just kind of go along the ride. But, but I thought this, this still, this had a very discernible and easy to follow plot. It has a pretty typical police, prestigial mystery murder plot as well.

So I don’t even think it was that ethereal. No. The feeling

Craig: that I was having was boredom. Like, I shit you not, I literally had to stop in the middle and take a nap. It’s slow.

Todd: It’s one of those kinds of movies you gotta be in the mood for. I was falling asleep. I could not imagine this at four and a half hours.

That would

Craig: be insane. Oh my god, no. And then I got up. And I went right back to it. I never even finished out that opening scene. And then they get attacked. But you don’t really ever see anything. Like, you see That’s not fair. You do see things, but you never see the assailant. We come to find out that these are, in fact, wolves.

I’ll be at supernatural wolves, but I think that they must also carry samurai swords because they can just slice off like that. That driver’s hand just gets sliced off. I can’t think of what would be sharp enough to do other than a samurai sword. This is it. And it’s just gone. And they also do heads later.

It comes right, right, right up on him. Like it’s literally feet away from him before the guy notices, but he eventually does notice, which makes me think they are visible. Of course they are. Okay, fine. Right. But the reason that I’m sighing is because we find out at the end that they can be invisible. They can disappear at will.

So I’m wondering. Do they, like, sneak up on them, invisible, and then right before they’re about to attack, turn visible?

Todd: I

Craig: didn’t

Todd: catch the disappearing at will bit. They disappear at the end. From the

Craig: apartment? Yes! They let you, they disappear! No, they don’t. You see them. Yes, you do. You, I watched this movie, and I watched a wolf disappear.

Like, it faded away.

Todd: Oh, I did not notice that. I, I remembered the policeman shooting, and the guy was like, don’t shoot it, and they cut to him shooting, and they cut to all the mirrors on, or in the room, and the mirrors on the, the French blinds and all that, and then when they cut back, the wolves were gone, but the French blinds were still swaying.

I thought they had just jumped back out and Done it so quickly.

Craig: No, they disappeared.

Todd: Okay.

Craig: I mean, I don’t know. Now you have me questioning myself, but I was like, this was middle of the day. I was stone cold sober. I had just had a nap. I had just had a nap. So I had to have been clear. I don’t know. I could have been hallucinating.

Whatever. Anyway, I don’t know. Like, that’s the thing. I feel like we’re hesitating to get into the plot because there’s not a whole lot to talk about. Well, I think there’s a lot to talk about, but, but, okay, well then you lead it because I don’t know if I, if I keep going, I will just try, keep trying to hit plot points and I don’t think that that’s necessary.

No, I do want to talk about how there are. So many familiar faces in this, which is ironic because I read that he didn’t want to cast well known people. Well, they

Todd: weren’t as well known at the time, except for, of course, uh, Albert Finney.

Craig: Yeah, right. But he, the other people he wanted to cast lesser knowns.

So he went to Broadway, which is where he got a couple of them, including Gregory Hines, who, God, I couldn’t believe it that pulled that got me like I don’t usually do this, but I pulled up the IMDb page for this and and the, uh, trailer started playing silently, you know, on mute or whatever. And I was just, you know, looking to see who directed it or whatever.

And then all of a sudden there was teeny tiny baby Gregory Hines. I’m like. What? So, so I watched the trailer, so I was excited to see that he was in it and he got a couple of other people from like Broadway and then just people who, you know, were new to the industry, like Tom Noonan, Tom Noonan, baby, one of his first roles.

Oh, I know. Like he was brand spanking new and he’s young and he’s. He’s handsome and I was like, come in and I know we’ve talked about him before. And so I started looking at the stuff that he had done and I was like, Oh my God, he’s Frankenstein from the monster monster

Todd: squad. But also like more recently in the house of the devil, he was the, yeah, the guy there, the

Craig: older guy, the older guy.

And he was also the villain in another movie that we’ve talked about a bazillion times, the last action hero. And I had forgotten that that was him. And it’s, I was thinking like Frankenstein in the monster squad. Now he was in heavy, heavy makeup in that, but he still acted it. It still looks like him and he can still act and like he really does.

And oh my God, he just breaks my heart in that movie. And then in the last action hero, he is a nasty, nasty villain. So I like that guy. He’s great. So, okay. I said, I wanted to talk about it. I did all these familiar faces pop up. Um, and, and this is when they were lesser known. Oh my God. Edward James Olmos.

Is the Native American guy on the bridge.

Todd: Yeah. I

Craig: wouldn’t have even have recognized him.

Todd: You really wouldn’t, would you? But what, Battlestar Galactica, both the original and the remake and so many other things.

Craig: Oh, well, of course I know him from that teacher movie. I don’t even remember what it was. I only remember the name of it, but he played like an amazing inspirational teacher, um, in some movie.

Oh God. Anyway. So yeah. So a mate, like all these amazing people just keep popping up like over and over and over again. The guy I, Oh God. We watched so many movies. Was it this movie that the guy from inner space was in? Maybe it was a different movie that we watched. I don’t know. We’ve watched so many anyway.

I

Todd: mean, Dick O’Neill. Who’s been in like, Everything Ever Made. Yes!

Craig: Yes! And he was in Inner Space! It’s another movie that, but he’s just this, yes, and he’s barely in it, like he’s just, I don’t know, like a boss. Uh huh. In their business for a minute. Those were the things that kept me in it, because other than that, it was a little dry for me.

I didn’t dislike it. I, I thought it was fine. It’s just, we’ve been so, especially you have been talking about werewolf month for years. You wanted to do werewolf month for years and I just kind of keep putting it off and, and then we just kind of fell into it. And then I was watching this and I was like, this is a disappointment.

I feel like we wasted a slot.

Todd: No, no, see my whole thing about werewolf month is like if they’re all just cheesy werewolf movies, it’s not fun I’m really looking for and hoping that we continue along the path of doing a variety of different takes on werewolves And so I was real happy with this. I thought this this fit right into that and you’re right.

I mean, it’s not Technically a werewolf movie and even I read Roger Ebert’s review of it, you know, which was very glowing He thought it was about Indians who can Exchange souls with wolves. And I very well could be, but I, and I say Indians, I mean, Native Americans, but they also refer to them as Indians in the movie too.

And that’s the classic term. And so I’m, I apologize if I, you know, offend anybody, if I slip into that mode, but that’s also part of the intentional fake out though, the mystery is, is, are these werewolves, like there are these strong hints and some red herrings in there that. There is actual werewolf shapeshifting going on.

The Tom Noonan character is frickin bizarre. At first I thought he was just like a zookeeper or a zoologist or something like that. But then he seems extremely fascinated with wolves. Like, that’s kind of his focus of study. And that’s pretty cool. Probably why they go to him to examine because they’re finding all these bodies that have been mutilated But mutilated like with precision and bits of it that have been left behind happen to be diseased So like it’s like whatever is killing and mutilating these people Knows that they are like gonna die anyway or something like that and they find hair On some of the bodies eventually.

I don’t know if this is true because I would buy that maybe nowadays we have this degree of sensitivity in our medical equipment, but I can’t believe back in 1981 that Gregory Hines character’s whole diatribe

Clip: is not a trace, not a speck of metal. You know how every piece of metal, no matter how sharp or smooth, will leave a residue when it cuts.

Could be as finite as dust. Soft x rays should pick it up. Nothing. And nothing soft that could have ripped and ravaged like this. Some plastic weapon. Synthetics. I don’t think there’s any way I can check that.

Craig: Really? I don’t know. It seems far fetched, but I don’t

Todd: know anything about forensics. I thought I might be learning something here or maybe it’s just a bunch of bullshit.

Craig: It would, it seemed to me like, and this is another thing that I felt like was a little bit misleading because why wouldn’t they just automatically. Assume is an animal attack. It just is now. I understand like the precision of leaving behind certain organs. Okay. That’s weird. But the wounds it’s claw wounds, and I don’t understand why they don’t get that right away.

And I felt like it was a little misleading because I felt like what they kept saying was it can’t be an animal. Because it’s too big.

Todd: It’s too big or it’s too smart. There was a degree of intelligence that was being attributed to it. Okay. In its selectivity of victims, that kind of thing.

Craig: And that’s fair.

I did, I really liked that scene. I really, really liked Gregory Hines in this movie. He was a highlight of the movie for me, yeah. He really was. He brought A little bit of levity to it. It was so like, it was so serious. Yeah. Like this movie is so serious.

Todd: Well, and it’s not like he was this like hilarious, comedic character.

He just brought a dose of like reality to it. Like, Oh, here’s a normal guy. Like a little jokey.

Craig: Yeah.

Todd: Not staring off and brooding everywhere and saying cryptic things to each other. You know?

Craig: No, it wasn’t even like he was like yucking it up. He wasn’t. He was just acting normal and like being. Friendly, and like, and, and it was not, and, and he’s, gosh, you know, I, I was unaware that he passed away a long time ago.

Todd: I was too. I went and looked him up. I was like, why have I not seen him in anything lately? I, let me go see what he’s been doing. And I was like, holy shit. I didn’t investigate

Craig: it further, so I don’t know what happened, but like, he was on Will and Grace, and he looked young and healthy, and like, that was the, that was his whole thing, like, he was super sexy, and they were all super into him, or whatever.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: That was the last time I had seen him, and apparently he passed away, and I don’t know how, but he Was such an amazing talent,

Todd: like that man,

Craig: holy crap. Like not only is he tall and handsome and could act obviously. And like, even in a role like this, where he’s totally secondary, he could be a totally forgettable.

Character and again, highlight of the movie for me, but he could also dance like, uh, list listeners. If you have never seen Gregory Hines dance, like go to YouTube immediately. Check it out. Because like he, he’s so talented and he just, Oozes charisma, make you drool a little bit. It’s so true. But anyway, I know that’s off topic, but I saw that he passed away and I’m like, I’m so sad because he was so amazing.

But yeah, I really enjoyed him in this movie, but I don’t understand why. It took them so long and then they find the wolf hairs. Where do you want to go? There’s a whole other character. There’s a huge character that we haven’t even introduced yet. This they introduced for no good reason. This woman. Um, her name is Rebecca Neff, and she’s played by Diane Venora, and I think they pulled her from stage work, too, I think, if I remember correctly.

And she’s fine, but she’s just an inconsequential character. It just feels like they have a male lead, so there has to be a romantic counterpart.

Todd: Right.

Craig: And I don’t need a romance in this movie. It’s dumb. And they have no chemistry. At all. No. Because he looks like her dad. He does. And again, she’s a lovely person.

I don’t like to judge people based on their looks. But she does not look like a starlet. She just looks like a normal person. So then we’re just supposed to like, be interested in this normal looking person. Are we though? Banging her dad.

Todd: I’m not sure. All right. So the banging bit really came out of left field for me because like you said, there was no chemistry.

In fact, I wasn’t even, I wasn’t even tapping a love interest angle here at all when I was watching it. They just

Craig: work together.

Todd: They just work together. I saw that scene as more of just a thing that happened because they were both stressed. You know what I mean? Like, I didn’t think the movie even was trying to push that, Oh, these guys are now falling in love.

I saw this again as more of this animalistic type thing. We’re all people. We’re part of nature, even though we’ve kind of tried to rise above it and take it over.

Craig: We all f whoever is around when we get nervous. Well, don’t you?

Todd: Don’t you? No. I’m not, you are twisting my word.

Craig: 30 years . You’re

Todd: twisting my words.

No, I agree with you. I think that, I think that was weird, but like, okay, so we’ve got, everybody here is troubled by something like this woman investigates. What is it? Like all over the world? She’s supposed to be like an expert in all the horrible way things that people do to each other all over the world

Craig: or something.

Like she’s, she’s like the greatest psychologist in all the land or something. Yeah. And so God. It’s so convoluted. Okay. It’s so convoluted because that rich guy, it’s all an investigation of who killed this rich guy, because he’s like a van der Veen or something like, obviously a play on Vanderbilt. Like they’re these rich people who are in control of shit or whatever.

And they own security corporation called executive securities. So it appears to me that executive securities are investigating the murder, as are the cops. And are they working together? Yeah. I don’t understand.

Todd: Well, she has this, and I think it’s sort of referred to as her machine, so that’s why I say she has this, this, almost this laboratory where she claims she can kind of tell where people, whether people are lying or not.

Craig: She has a fancy pants lie detector test, that’s all

Todd: it is. It’s like four different, you know, technologies put together. It’s thermal imaging to try to capture, you know, changes in temperature in your face. face. It’s a voice thing to try to catch your tremors in your voice. They got something hooked up to her finger, like a, like a classic lie detector to monitor, you know, the heart and all that stuff.

There are these very shadowy, almost evil, like surveillance style scenes, right? Where they have these people hooked up to this and they’re. Talking to them and interviewing them people who somehow they think might know something about this or be ancillary related they have this initial notion and this is like it’s like the chief of police is following this one lead and then this guy and Gregory Hines’s character are following the other lead.

Craig: Oh, right

Todd: where the police is like these are terrorists Because one woman says And they’re convinced,

Craig: they’re con

Todd: That’s so stupid! Oh, it was definitely a terrorist activity. Like she knows. But they’re like, no, the lie detector tell you know, clearly shows she’s lying, she doesn’t know crap about this. So, you know, again, I think, I think all this makes sense.

In the sense that, again, we’re setting up this whole, here is the future and here is modern day society, here is a sort of New York under surveillance kind of thing. Oppression, surveillance, corporate Controlled stuff. And then here is the grittiness of the reality of what some of that does. Right? You have these this urban blight.

You have this whole area of the city that was once developed and is now a wasteland and nobody cares and the exact opposite kind of people live there. And actually, I thought that the movie was very sensitive toward the people, for example, the bar that’s on the edge of that in the Bronx, where the Native Americans are and the homeless people who are wandering around in the slums and, and, Amidst the ruins that are surround this broken down church and that is where all these attacks are happening And these are the kinds of people that are getting killed until the rich people Get killed and now all of the efforts are going into trying to figure out who these rich people are when actually There have been a whole bunch of people who nobody gave a shit about because they’re homeless.

Yeah are being killed

Craig: that’s the whole thing like this Vander Veen guy or whatever was Developing These run down areas and, and he’s got like in his apartment or their headquarters or something, I don’t know. There’s like a model of this, you know, very modern development that they’re going to put up there.

And as it turns out, the wolves are protecting their territory. Like the last of the territory they have. Yeah. They don’t want it. Developed because this is where they hunt. Support for two guys in a chainsaw during werewolf month is brought to you by Manscaped, who is the best in men’s below the way grooming, shaving your jewels doesn’t have to be risky business anymore.

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It’s easy grooming, no surprises. Get 20 percent off and free shipping with the code chainsaw at manscaped. com. That’s 20 percent off and free shipping with the code. Chainsaw at manscapes. com. The question I was going to ask before I forget, we’ll get back to it. I don’t even remember how Albert Finney got turned on to the native American aspect of it.

I feel like he just kind of knew this guy, Eddie.

Todd: Yeah, well, he knew this guy, Eddie and the woman raised some point, which I don’t remember exactly what it was. Something about wolf attacks, and I think, I don’t know, somehow he got in this, this notion of Native Americans and shapeshifting into his head, because he basically climbs up the bridge to where Eddie is actually working on the bridge with all of his Native American friends.

Craig: Now let me, let me ask you a question, because you’re the filmmaker. Did they shoot that on top of that bridge?

Todd: For sure they did. Yeah. Those were not green screenshots at all. That was an accomplishment.

Craig: I know. I thought the same thing. I’m like. They are up there on that bridge and that is pretty cool.

Like, again, the cinematography, there are amazing shots of New York in 1980. Just amazing, amazing shots of 1980s New York. It’s haunting, kind of.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: But anyway, okay, continue. They’re up on the

Todd: bridge. So they’re up on the bridge and he pretty much almost directly asks him, Hey, you know, what can you tell me about shape shifting werewolves?

And he’s like, well,

Clip: I can swim like a fish and I look like a bunny. I can shift with the best of them. Shift? Shape shift. We do it for kicks. Oh yeah? Turn ourselves into a different animal. One night a salmon, next night a deer. Or a wolf.

Todd: Sure. And he unhooks. Dewey’s, Albert Finney’s character, from his safety harness.

Now, he’s never had the safety on, actually. But, uh, he unhooks him from the safety harness and grabs his arm and says, See, you could fly like an eagle, too. Just have a jump and, and see. It’s all in the mind. It’s all in the mind. Uh, yeah. It is a tense scene. And so, that’s creepy.

Craig: It made me very nervous because I am terrified of heights.

Ha ha ha ha ha! When he unhooked him, I’m like, oh my god, I would, uh, I couldn’t handle it.

Todd: I mean, looking at the way it was shot and looking at it, knowing the time period and, you know, like, I wouldn’t doubt that they were up there for a little while without any safety harnesses on shooting this. That

Craig: was freaky.

Oh boy.

Todd: So anyway, that gets us in that mindset. Like I said, I think this whole wolf thing is an intentional fake out, right? Like, that gets us in this mindset. Okay, well, now we’re following the detective down this idea, like, could these people, could there be werewolves? Could there be shapeshifters

Craig: doing this?

And it’s also not long after that, that. Albert Finney follows Eddie, like he stakes them out, like there’s a bar that apparently all of these Native American people and they, they, I don’t know, they try to explain that Native Americans work in construction a lot or something, but they all hang out in this one bar and he stakes them out and he and a couple of other guys come out and then.

This older Native American man, they stop in the middle, like, they just stop on the sidewalk. And this older Native American man gets in front of Edward James Olmos, puts a necklace on him, and says something. And puts a

Todd: piece of, uh, something under his It was like a drug, right? Like, in his, in his, uh, gums.

Craig: Yeah. I want, I didn’t know what it was and they never tell us what it was, but I assumed it was LSD or, or, or some natural hallucinogen or something like that. And so Albert Finney Dewey follows him to the beach where Eddie goes under the pier, takes off all his clothes and is naked for the next five minutes.

Yeah. Naked. Yeah. I was surprised by that too. And it’s like, whatever. He’s naked. He’s fully naked. There’s not a lot of like

Todd: flopping wiener or anything, but Edward James, almost not Albert Finney. This other guy is naked.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would have been a totally different story, but he, he takes off all of his clothes and I’m like, yes, this is it.

This is it. This is the moment and it teases it.

Todd: Oh, so bad.

Craig: He does stuff with his feet. Face like he like, like contorts his face in a way that a person could, but you think, Oh, this is it. This is the precursor he’s going to turn. But instead he just runs around like a dog laps up water out of the ocean.

Yeah. Well, out of a puddle. A dog wouldn’t drink water out of the ocean. Out of a puddle in the I don’t know, whatever. But he just runs around like a dog for a while, and then he sees Albert Finney watching him, and he starts running up to him like, like he’s gonna attack him. It’s creepy. It is, and he faces him, and he like, snarls and growls at him for a while, but then he just stands up, like, like he just Honked him or something.

I I don’t even really understand what was happening. Like, he just resumes his humanity, and stands up, and I couldn’t tell if it was a, like, Like a gotcha moment, uh, because he says something like, see, I told you it was all in your head. And then the scene just cuts away. Right. And that’s it. Yeah. What a weird, weird moment.

And I didn’t understand what we were supposed to learn from it. Well, yeah.

Todd: Again, I think, oh, okay, now this is probably a dead end, right? I think that’s what he’s learning about this, too. He’s disappointed he didn’t see this guy turn into a werewolf.

Craig: But was he just messing with him? No, I, well,

Todd: I don’t really think so, because I think that, um, a lot of traditional tribal religions that deal with nature.

I also think of voodoo. Voodoo goes down this route as well, where people will channel Spirits often using drugs, they will, you know, enter these trans like states where they’re supposed to be channeling spirits, channeling spirits of animals, channeling spirits of the saints and things like that. And I think this was really nothing more than just, uh, another version of that happening that he witnessed.

And, you know, conveniently,

Craig: I think you’re right. But in that case, it feels a little trite, like, uh, pretend to be a dog for Three minutes, but

Todd: I don’t think so because there are actual if you go into their bar, which he does later There’s wolf imagery on the walls. You see, you know old photographs of the Indians You know The the Native Americans wearing the the wolf hides and things like that and a couple of them him and an older man They’re going to a long diatribe Basically explaining the wolves and the Indians.

It’s not It’s interesting. It is. It’s

Clip: not wolves. It’s wolfing. 20, 000 years, Wilson. 10 times your fucking Christian era. The skins and the wolves. The great hunting nations live together. Nature in balance. Then the slaughter came.

The smartest ones. They went underground. Into the new wilderness, your cities. Into the great slum areas. The graveyard of your fucking species. These great hunters became your scavengers. Your garbage, your abandoned people. Became their new meat animal. Animals? Are you sure, Wilson? They might be gods. In their eyes, you are the savage.

You got your technology, but you lost. You lost your senses.

Todd: Thematically, it all, it all connects though. You know, it’s not random. It’s not like, you know, luck. They’re aware. You know, they know full well what’s going on. Over here with these wolves, and they feel a kinship with them. And again, like I said, I think it’s set up in the very beginning of the movie.

You know, just as modern society or the white man has driven the Native Americans out of their land, you know, out of their land where they were one with nature. I mean, he basically says this, right? So we all are driving nature out. Of its land, you know, and this is the last bastion and they don’t want it to go and that Burned out church is kind of a symbol, you know, it’s like the last standing holy place even when they go in there, there’s there’s wolf, uh imagery in you know pieces of the Stained remaining stained glass and stuff like that.

And again, this isn’t supposed to be so literal. It’s all metaphorical, but it’s a place. Sure. I mean, yeah, it, it’s, it seems contrived because it is because it’s all to push forward this theme, but I liked it. I thought it was a beautiful piece of art because of that. Yeah. As the movie went on, all of that.

At least for me, really coalesced into something a little more coherent, where I started to realize, Okay, this is a little deeper and a little more complicated than just some people who can turn into wolves. And I thought the movie did a really good job of faking me out a little bit, leading me down that path, introducing some really odd characters.

We haven’t even talked about much about Tom Noonan’s character, but he, as the zoologist, is one night, you know, watching this videos and making his, Audio notes about wolves, which is hated that looks that

Craig: I think that footage was real and I hated it.

Todd: Yeah, of course. It was real hunting. It was like wolf hunting footage from

Craig: a helicopter.

Fuck you. Like, I don’t know. And for all I know, they may have been calling wolves for necessary purposes. I don’t know, but it was, it was really unsettling to watch those beautiful. Gorgeous animals being shot and, and clearly in agony, like, because the ones that we saw, most of them didn’t die immediately from the shot.

They were just taken down and you see them writhing and howling in agony and, uh, God, it just made me sick.

Todd: At the same time, the wolf vision, you know, has been going around, and it has come outside of his window, and you can hear that it’s hearing what’s going on in there. And then he seems to kind of sense, or hear some howling or something outside, so he actually goes to the window and opens the window.

For no good reason except Possibly that it’s out. It almost seems like he’s like, if there’s a wolf out there, like I want him to see this or I want him to kind of know what’s happening. I feel like he was so fascinated by these animals yet. Here he is watching these video, you know, in the sort of science again, how we dissect nature, right?

As scientists, I’m sure that anybody who studies animals clearly respects them and loves them, or they probably wouldn’t be into them. But Not necessarily so, right? Science is full of a lot of, like, this kind of thing. Shooting animals so that you can, you know, dissect them, and, and he has stuffed wolves back in there, you know?

And so, he almost seems to represent this sort of side of raping nature for even what we seem to think is possibly good intentions. But, uh, I think the movie was almost Presenting him as having an unhealthy fascination or his methods were unsound to which for which he needed to be punished

Craig: I hadn’t even considered that in fact I was confused why the wolves would kill him because I got the impression that he respected Nature, but now that you say yeah, he does have all those stuffed wolves back there He’s basically watching wolf torture porn.

Maybe Tom Noonan was miscast Maybe this should have been a smarmy or guy because Tom Noonan is very Soft and charming like yeah, he

Todd: also has a slight in his soft and charmingness. There’s a slight Creepiness to it. I think, you know, there’s a deliberateness to the way he delivers himself. It was really obvious in the house of the devil.

I thought, you know, where you’re like, this guy feels sinister, even though on its surface, there’s nothing but charm and niceness and almost meekness coming from this guy. Jonathan Price can come across that way too. Sometimes I really,

Craig: he is a little bit more sinister in my opinion, but okay. The things that I wanted to talk about.

Because we’re getting close to time, the guy Dewey and Rebecca do lots of investigating. That is most of the movie. And we haven’t talked about it at all. That’s most of the movie. But there’s one point where they go to that church and I’m not even sure why they’re there. But what I do know is they feel like they hear.

Babies crying or she does or something. And that’s a recurring thing that happens. I, what is that? Is that like a sound? Like, can wolves make a sound that sounds like human babies crying? Is that what was the suggestion?

Todd: I believe so. Uh, not, not necessarily intentionally, but sometimes their howls resemble that.

Or, yeah, they’re, they’re mewling or whatever, maybe. I’m not, not to take you off the point, but just to go back to the Tom Noonan thing, like, it’s similar. I was confused why he called the, the, the fire department, and then he goes What?!

Craig: I didn’t understand that at all!

Todd: Again, I

Craig: He reported a fake fire!

Todd: Uh huh.

And then he leaves.

Craig: I didn’t know. I had no idea why

Todd: he goes out to the park, right? Central Park again, which is almost a nature preserve in the middle of the city, right? There are a number of scenes in this movie that take place there, but he goes out there and he stops and he listens and you can hear the sound of the sirens almost meld and morph into the sounds of this wolf howling.

And it seems to give him excitement. Metaphorically, it makes it sound like these two things are not that far off. Like the siren that we have now is. Similar to the cry of a wolf back then, it even almost sounds the same, that’s how similar they are, right? And they serve similar purposes. Sound the alarm, sound danger and things.

It almost seemed like he was setting that off because he knew that if he heard the, if the wolves heard the sirens, maybe the wolves would then howl. And he had a sense that the wolves were out and they were there because he actually makes that comment. I knew you would be here.

Craig: Okay. Okay.

Todd: Like a lure in a way.

Craig: Okay. Gotcha. I did not catch that at all. I didn’t know what was going on. And then he does hear them and then he gets attacked off of his motorbike. Did you notice the next morning when it’s after their bang session, the guy, Dewey, comes out of that girl’s apartment? And, like, a homeless guy is, like, scooting along on Tom Noonan’s motorcycle.

Did you notice that? Oh, was that his motorcycle? I wonder what that was. It was Tom Noonan’s motorcycle. Some homeless guy had just found it. It was, like, just scooting along. I thought that was hilarious. I wonder. Um, but anyway, okay. So, they’re, they’re at this church, Dewey and Rebecca. She starts walking up, there’s like a steeple, and there’s like a stairway that you can walk up the steeple, and she starts walking up there, and we know that there’s a wolf up there because we are seeing wolf vision watching her from that perspective, but all of a sudden, Dewey runs up there!

Frantically and grabs her and races her out like he knows that there’s a threat, but I didn’t understand what happened that alerted him that was something happening. And it’s also interesting to me this scene because at this point, they still don’t know what is going on, so they don’t even know what it was that was up there, if anything, and they just run away and just carry on with their day.

Well, that was a weird thing that happened.

Todd: Yeah, I mean it’s a close call in a movie That’s you know, trying to set up some suspense every now and then I mean, I just thought

Craig: did I miss something? Was there something that alerted him that there was danger? Because it just seemed like all of a sudden he was like and he ran up and got her and they left

Todd: But isn’t that around the same moment where he is looking up and noticing all the wolf imagery around the church?

Maybe I wondered if that might be what what kind of alerted him to it And I really Again, I really like that image, like, this is their sacred place, and it’s in tatters, and it’s sort of their last refuge, and the last thing they have to try to defend.

Craig: Then, I feel like the next interesting scene is, a lot happens, there’s lots of business, but eventually, Dewey and Gregory Hines, Go back and investigate that area also and they’re like staking it out from different buildings But they’re focused in on the church and at some point Dewey like I don’t know gets impatient and just starts walking towards the church but Gregory Hines gets attacked from above and I like it was kind of Exciting it was because he had a great big gun at this point We’re actually starting to see the wolves and they are just they’re wolves.

Yeah, they are not You Any kind of creature effect, nothing. They are wolves. They used real wolves in this movie. It’s crazy. I was also a little bit disturbed to hear that they had snipers in position at all times, and if the wolves got out of the contained area. Area in which they were shooting, the snipers were told to shoot to kill because these wolves were too dangerous to escape.

Oh boy, maybe don’t use real wolves then. But I have to admit, they looked amazing. Yeah. And they were very scary.

Todd: Yeah, I mean, I kind of had a brand new appreciation for wolves, which, you know, For a while now, I always just think of it as like big dogs that are wild, you know, but like, in this movie, they’re clearly not, they’re clearly completely different creatures, they’re snarling, and they’re scary, and they’re kind of magical.

Craig: And they’re huge. You don’t realize how big they are, like, even in this movie, when they’re On all fours, I mean, they’re scary as heck, but they, they do just look like big dogs, but there is one scene. I don’t remember where it comes in the movie where they’re showing, I don’t remember if it’s the helicopter moment or not, but when they’ve hunted wolves, two grown men have to hold up the corpse of one between them and it is as big as they are.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: Like they look smaller because they’re on all fours, but if you pick them up, they are as big as a man.

Todd: It’s nuts.

Craig: Yeah, it’s scary. And it’s, it’s very scary. And I feel like we need to get to the end. They kill Gregory Hines, which I was really upset about because he was my favorite character. But then Dewey gets attacked a little bit.

I actually didn’t really understand how he was as injured as he was. Cause it didn’t really seem like he was a, I don’t know. But anyway, he goes back to the native American bar and that’s where they give him all of the exposition that we’ve already talked about. And that leads up to the end and the end all kind of takes place.

It’s at that executive securities place. Well, it’s at

Todd: the, yeah, it’s at the apartment or whatever of. Of the Vander beers, right? Kind of where they started their investigation. He comes back, but he sees it in a new light because it becomes very obvious to him. Okay. It wasn’t terrorists. It was the wolves taken out the people who were threatening their territory.

And this Vanda beers just a few days before had attended a groundbreaking ceremony, right? He had the shovel in there to break on this new development of which they had that big white model inside the apartment.

Craig: Right. Okay. And so it’s the, it’s Dewey and Rebecca, and then also the executive, I guess, of this executive securities or whatever.

And they are trying to get out and go to a car. I don’t really remember all the context, it doesn’t matter. But they’re outside, and they get surrounded by wolves. Yeah, dude, that was scary. Great, looks fantastic, love it, love it, love it. And they all stand still. And I feel like at this point, Dewey understands they’re not just monsters, like, you know, they’re protecting their territory or whatever, and he’s just trying to be cool, and he tells everybody to be cool, but the executive runs off, and he gets his hand sliced off, too, but he makes it to his car, and he’s trying to start his car, and then one of the wolves pops up in the back seat behind him and Like classic horror moment.

You Yeah, like Jennifer Tilly, but I loved it. And it looked great and it was scary and it was great, but then Dewey distracts the wolves by shooting the gas tank of that car and it blows up. And so he and Rebecca run inside and they run up to that room, which is on. Like the top floor of a huge building.

It’s in that room with the big model of the development and they’re kind of just sitting around. And then I think it’s Rebecca sees out the window. The wolves are all lined up outside the window. This is like a top floor. So this is a Salem’s lot moment with where these wolves should not be able to be there, but they are and they burst in and this again, it’s like I’m flying through it, but it’s all so great.

This is the best part of the movie.

Todd: Awesome.

Craig: And then the wolves are all in there in the apartment and he has a gun, but He puts it down to show them like, and like puts his hands up, unloads

Todd: it and everything. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig: Like, I don’t want to hurt you. We’re not trying to hurt you. And then I guess to communicate with them, he smashes and destroys that model of the development.

Now I read afterwards that that was. Communicating to them that it was not going to happen. Like the, the development was over. It’s not going to happen. What? Like, I don’t know that he has the power to make that decision. Well, decision been

Todd: made the way I interpreted it in the moment was he was just communicated to them that he was sort of anti development, like, I understand this is why you’re doing your thing and I don’t agree with this either.

So I’m going to tear it up. So you’ll spare me

Craig: fair enough. And they do. And then the cops bust in and start. Shooting? Who are they shooting at? Because it’s not the wolves, the wolves disappear.

Todd: Well, the wolves disappear once they start shooting. I mean But, but, but,

Craig: then they,

Todd: the cops never say anything about wolves.

Well, he says, don’t shoot, don’t shoot. You know, cause he’s trying to get them to not shoot the wolves. Right,

Craig: but he Convinces them, the cops, that it was terrorists, right? Because he has to keep the wolves secret. People can’t know about it now. This is okay. So, and that’s where the movie ends basically, I think, but I’m still confused and I feel like the message of the movie is a little muddy.

Because I think that what we’re supposed to believe is that these wolves should be left alone because they are just protecting the only last bit of territory that is available to them and in truth They’re helping us out because they’re really only feeding on people who are gonna die anyway And they’re smart enough to not eat the diseased organs people who are only gonna die anyway You Or, undesirables who live in slums.

Todd: Hahahaha! Is that, is that right? That, I mean, you’re not far off. You’re, when you make it that blunt, it does come across as a little bad. I don’t think that’s the real reason. Again, I think this is just a high end metaphor, right? Just for man and nature and man overtaking. I don’t think the message is we need to leave wolves alone in cities, you know,

Craig: they’re not real world, real wolves.

They’re a sacred spiritual wall. Yeah. And they’re just cleaning up the bad parts of town. So leave them alone because they have no choice

Todd: because they have no choice. Yeah, fair enough. By the way, I don’t know. I thought the score for this movie was fantastic Amazing. Loved it. James Horner, one of his early works, he only had 12 days to write and record it because they booted off the guy, the previous score.

The score as much made the movie as the visuals as far as I’m concerned. And you can hear the theme for Aliens in there. That na na, na na kind of horn thing. It,

Craig: uh, it sounded like Jaws to me sometimes. It, it had that kind of driving rhythm. And I know he didn’t do Jaws, but.

Todd: No, well, it’s that, no, it’s that ethereal, like, Ha na, ha na, ha na, ha na, ha na, ha na, ha na, ha na, ha na, ha na.

Kind of echoing horn thing? Yeah. Oh. Kind of like, da da.

Craig: Regardless, I thought the score was very strong, too. And helped out because, uh, I didn’t love this movie. I didn’t hate it. I don’t think it’s a bad movie. I think that it’s a fine movie. I was a little, I felt a little duped. We’re doing a werewolf month and this, and I, and I almost texted you, I almost texted you.

It was like. Bro, it’s not a werewolf movie, just so

Todd: you know. I mean, I think we’re, I think we’re throwing a wide net out. I mean, I, I disagree. I mean, of course it’s not a movie about people who transform into wolves, but I think it’s definitely within the realm of this idea, you know, of. Yeah, it’s not a werewolf movie.

Craig: Lycanthropic stuff. Lycanthropic stuff. Sure, sure. Yeah,

Todd: you know. Fine,

Craig: fine. And it’s fine. And, you know, it’s, it’s a well made movie. There are parts of it that I really liked. The ending with the real wolves was like, wow, I love that. All of these great people who I. Scene and other things and lights and other things.

I enjoyed those parts of it. I wouldn’t watch it again. I I really was It felt long. It wasn’t it really felt long. It was two hours. Yeah, it did it and

Todd: it felt like it I feel like this is the kind of movie you’re either in the mood for you’re not You know, it’s a very, very slow burn, but it’s beautifully shot with a great score, fantastic characters in it, and it is peppered throughout with great moments, honestly.

True. The cinematography is gorgeous, like, the color palette is really interesting, you know, there are times when it almost feels black and white, because it’s so washed out, and those happen to be the moments when they’re in the city and they’re in the older part of the town, and it’s just, you know, when you really start to break it down, you realize This is a very complicated film.

It’s a, it’s a much more of a thinker than what we are probably than any other movie we will probably do for the rest of werewolf. Our werewolf cycle. Of course. Yeah. Right. Of course. And you know, we talked about that, that, you know, the howling was credited with taking werewolves out of the realm of cheese and giving them a little more punch and, and, and doing some interesting things with it in a way this movie that came out the same year managed to go in another slightly different direction, you know?

And so. True. For that, I, I, I like, I like the fact that we, that we did this and I don’t feel duped.

Craig: Okay, good. And, and I’m not disappointed that we did it. I, I think it’s a movie worthy of talking about. And I also think that it’s really interesting that those three movies came out like in the same year.

Crazy, right? It’s wild anyway.

Todd: Yeah. Three very interesting werewolf movies so far. All of them very unique in their own way. All of them in some ways, very surprising their own way. It’s a shame we’ve already done a company of wolves because that would also fall into this kind of like weird category, right?

Where that was like a fairy tale and it, it was a little nebulous at times about what was going on. I really liked that one.

Craig: It very much. under the umbrella of what we’re doing right now. If people are listening to this and enjoying it, you should listen to that episode because that is a wild where it is

Todd: trippy and artsy and cool.

And that was our Angela Lansbury tribute, wasn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you’ve enjoyed our werewolf story. And you know some other friends who might be interested in it, go ahead and send this their way. That’s one of the best things you can do.

Another great thing you can do for us if you want to support the podcast is write a review for us somewhere else. Or, go ahead and think about joining our Patreon. We have a great set of goodies for patrons out there. They get to hear our unedited episodes, they get mini sodes, written reviews, a lot of different things.

that we put out there. We’ve got a Christopher Pike book club that’s going strong and turning out to be a blast. I’m loving that. It is fun. We might just keep going on that. So there’s, there’s plenty of time to get it on that. Just go to patreon. com slash chainsaw podcast. Until next time, I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.