327: How to Fire Someone Without Feeling Like the Bad Guy with Jackie Koch

The Modern Manager

Have you ever had to fire someone and lost sleep over it?

Firing someone isn’t as easy as saying, “You’re fired!”. If you’ve been through it, you know just how tough it can be–emotions run high, and it’s hard not to feel like you’re the bad guy.

That’s why I sat down with an HR expert to get her best advice on how to fire someone thoughtfully.

Today’s guest is Jackie Koch. Jackie has more than 15 years of experience hiring teams and leading human resources for Fortune 500 companies, startups, and small businesses. She launched People Principles in 2020 where she helps founders scale and lead their teams with HR and recruiting services. She's also the host of the World's Greatest Boss podcast.

In this episode, Jackie and I talk about the dos and don’ts of firing someone from your team. We dive into how to determine if firing is the right decision, and the steps managers should take to prepare for these difficult conversations.

Plus, in the extended episode available to Podcast+ members, Jackie discusses the legal aspects of firing, what to do (and what not to do) to protect yourself and your organization, and how to manage the aftermath with your team.

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Conversation Topics

• (00:00) Introduction
• (02:38) When do you know it’s time to fire someone?
• (05:22) What managers need to do before firing a team member
• (09:34) Why document all your performance discussions
• (14:04) The dos and don’ts of firing
• (21:47) How to nail the toughest firing conversation
• (27:39) A great manager Jackie has worked for
• (28:45) Keep up with Jackie
• (29:15) [Extended Episode Only] The legal aspects of firing: What you need to know
• (32:36) [Extended Episode Only] The one thing to never do when firing someone
• (34:37) [Extended Episode Only] How to manage the aftermath with your team

Additional Resources:

- Get the extended episode by Joining The Modern Manager Podcast+ Community for just $15 per month

- Read the full transcript here

- Follow me on Instagram here

- Visit my website for more here

- Upskill your team here

- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel here

Keep up with Jackie Koch

- Follow Jackie on LinkedIn and Instagram

- Check out her website for more information here

- Subscribe to her podcast, World’s Greatest Boss here

5 Complimentary HR Audits

Jackie is generously offering five free HR audits to members of Podcast+. Normally priced at $249, the HR Audit includes a self-assessment and a 60-minute call with Jackie or her business partner to review everything and talk through suggested changes to implement.

To get this guest bonus and many other member benefits, become a member of The Modern Manager Podcast+ Community.

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The Modern Manager is a leadership podcast for rockstar managers who want to create a working environment where people thrive, and great work gets done.

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